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why was jeff berlin banned?
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Rickett Customs
Commercial User
You'll find alot from him in the DB side, he knows his history in uprights........
He was probably banned because he directly violated Rule #1, Rule #5, and maybe Rule #2. I am not a moderator, just guessing based on what I read in the threads.
Rule #1: Respect your fellow members.
Rule #2: Do not post profanity.
Rule #5: Questioning a Moderator
I don't care who you are, you gotta follow the rules. The moderators gave him warning after warning.
- Dec 13, 1999
- 11,736
- 8,941
- 70
- Disclosures
- Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
Rule #1: Respect your fellow members
All registered users must address fellow members with the utmost respect at all times. If you do not agree with a fellow member, be courteous in your response. Thomas Jefferson said it best: "When I hear another express an opinion which is not mine, I say to myself, he has a right to his opinion, as I to mine".
Because of the limitations of text based communication, the expression of intent can be tricky. One of the most common triggers of rule violations is the misinterpretation of intent behind a post. Use smilies often, and remember, it never hurts to begin a response with "In my opinion"...
If you do not address everyone on the board with respect, be prepared to lose your membership.
Rule #5: Do not question moderation policies/actions in the forums
If you have a disagreement with a moderator (If your thread gets deleted, if you get a warning, etc.), DO NOT post your complaint publicly on the forums. If you have a problem with a moderator's actions, PM or email the moderator privately. If the moderator's response is unsatisfactory, email the administrators (username: Paul, Chris Fitzgerald, john turner, David Wilson) or use the Contact Us link at the bottom of every page of the site.
We take all complaints seriously, but posting your dissatisfaction publicly will result in a rule violation.
Rule #8: Represent yourself truthfully
Please be honest when representing yourself on TalkBass.com. Using two or more user accounts concurrently for any reason is prohibited. Registering duplicate accounts to circumvent a ban is not only prohibited but may result in account deletion and permanent ban from the site.
If you receive remuneration (financially or in kind) from a company and post as a shill, or register a duplicate username to act as a shill, the entire posting history of both accounts will be wiped from TalkBass, and the action will be made public. TalkBass.com reserves the right to check internet IP addresses for verification.
All registered users must address fellow members with the utmost respect at all times. If you do not agree with a fellow member, be courteous in your response. Thomas Jefferson said it best: "When I hear another express an opinion which is not mine, I say to myself, he has a right to his opinion, as I to mine".
Because of the limitations of text based communication, the expression of intent can be tricky. One of the most common triggers of rule violations is the misinterpretation of intent behind a post. Use smilies often, and remember, it never hurts to begin a response with "In my opinion"...
If you do not address everyone on the board with respect, be prepared to lose your membership.
Rule #5: Do not question moderation policies/actions in the forums
If you have a disagreement with a moderator (If your thread gets deleted, if you get a warning, etc.), DO NOT post your complaint publicly on the forums. If you have a problem with a moderator's actions, PM or email the moderator privately. If the moderator's response is unsatisfactory, email the administrators (username: Paul, Chris Fitzgerald, john turner, David Wilson) or use the Contact Us link at the bottom of every page of the site.
We take all complaints seriously, but posting your dissatisfaction publicly will result in a rule violation.
Rule #8: Represent yourself truthfully
Please be honest when representing yourself on TalkBass.com. Using two or more user accounts concurrently for any reason is prohibited. Registering duplicate accounts to circumvent a ban is not only prohibited but may result in account deletion and permanent ban from the site.
If you receive remuneration (financially or in kind) from a company and post as a shill, or register a duplicate username to act as a shill, the entire posting history of both accounts will be wiped from TalkBass, and the action will be made public. TalkBass.com reserves the right to check internet IP addresses for verification.
i used to think so but i don't anymore. you do have to tart yourself down for tb, but seeing a handful of kids coming on here and getting verbally brutalized for just not knowing any better made me realize that rules might be a good thing
Most of the rules here are a good thing but some IMO are just too PC and ridiculous. Ex: We can't say a bass is ugly unless we own that particular one that we think is ugly.
but doesn't that sound a bit strange? almost like a communism or dictatorship. That the general populace of the board is not presented with the problem, instead, it is presented to a moderator for his/her opinion which may or may not be biased in some way. ya know?
but if you have a complaint with a moderator, who takes care of it? what if you have a complaint with two mods? who deals with it? a moderator right? "Administrator" is a fancy name for a mod isn't it? So therefore, anyone with an issue with a mod has no choice but to present it to other moderators, who will doubtless side with their own peers.
right?
bongomania
Commercial User
This is not an anarchy, and this is not a pure democracy. This is a privately-owned site with rules that the owner thinks are fair and reasonable. If you don't like it, you don't have to come here.
Rickett Customs
Commercial User
Besides what bongo states, I believe (IME) the mods here, have been fair to me, although I may have disagreed in the past once or twice, but they were fair nonetheless, so i don't believe that you'll get unfair treatment, from just abiding by the rules. They will alert you of an infraction, if you step over the line. To have a good structure, you do need boundaries.
shouldn't it be important to "Unite the Low End"? all of them? instead of weeding out the "Undesirables" who choose not to bend to 300 pages of rules or whatever?
I agree that respect is essential, but not if it is at the price of honesty... or not? Isn't going out of your way to be someone you aren't dishonest?
I agree that respect is essential, but not if it is at the price of honesty... or not? Isn't going out of your way to be someone you aren't dishonest?
john turner
You don't want to do that. Trust me.
just to clear the air, once and for all,i'll elaborate on the given (correct) explanations of why jeff berlin was banned from talkbass, along with illustrating a bit of history to put things in perspective. normally we (site administration) do not do this, but, just like with practically everything else jeff-related, i am going to make an exception.
jeff berlin once had a pro forum here on talkbass, hence the two user names. his pro forum went pretty much like every other public communication i have ever seen him participate in on the internet, and elsewhere. unfortunately, his provocative stance and verbiage earned him endless ire from a few folks who disagreed with him, including quite a few teenagers with axes to grind. also unfortunately, instead of ignoring these folks and just presenting his message (which to -me- should be the primary job of an educator) he got so embroiled in these pissing contests that he eventually felt the need to "pack up his toys and go home", not ony leaving talkbass in a huff, but also demanding that paul, the site owner, completely delete all his messages from the database and remove his pro forum, with heavily implied threat. i considered that an unfortunate approach for a self-proclaimed champion of education to take - removing all his positive contributions in a scorched earth maneuver - especially considering the vast majority of participants here welcomed his participation, and only a small minority gave him grief for his "metronomes are bad/impossible to not sound like jaco on a fretless/"i" invented slap" pronouncements, but i also understood that the internet can be hard on folks sometimes, especially folks who have better things to do than engage in e-wrestling, and i gave him the benefit of the doubt as to his motivations.
regardless, as soon as someone takes that stance with us, flinging threats and insinuating legal action if we do not comply with their wishes, the standard policy at talkbass is a) never allow them back to the site and b) never engage in any communication with them whatsoever outside of -snail mail-.
just like with a lot of other things when it came to jeff, though, we were flexibile when he came back to our site to post, under the 2nd nickname, and field folks' questions. just like most folks, we were excited and glad to have him.
these threads initially turned out great - there were many folks who participated and got positive interraction out of them, but they also required -constant- babysitting on the part of the mod/admin staff to maintain the standards of our site in the communication between members.
a word about thread babysitting. we get approx 10,000 posts a day at talkbass. we do not have the manpower to babysit -any- thread. even if jesus, jaco, buddy rich and muhammed were having an open forum discussing odd time polyrhythms in angelic free jazz, we do not have the ability to handhold ever poster in a particular thread. we have a single site owner, 3 employed administrators, and a couple dozen volunteer moderators to handle ~130,000 members, a substantial percentage of which are active, and, as i said, 10,000 posts a day.
so eventually, due to the demands of running this site, we were forced to allow jeff's threads to be free in the forum playground, just like every other thread on this forum, hopefully with the understanding that the participants recognized that the site rules still applied, as they do in every thread. apparently this was also expected to be an exception to our rule, since members on both sides of the fence soon made a habit of breaking these rules, pretty often, including jeff.
however, none of the individuals called on breaking our rules responded with repeatedly insulting the site and the moderators, or their motivations, -except- jeff. this is also something that we normally do not tolerate, nor should we. after all, this is our site, and we run it as we see fit to provide the best environment for -everyone- to share and grow. we have the rules for a reason, and believe it or not, even though i'm directly responsible for many of them, i don't agree with -all- of them. however, i do recognize that every one of them is required to maintain this site at the level of quality that it is.
i can only imagine how i would be treated should i go to player's school of music, for instance, and stand up in the middle of the classroom and disrupt everyone's day with insults about the school itself and the individuals involved in running it. this was exactly what jeff has done, repeatedly, and yet this too was not penalized. again, an exception for jeff berlin was made.
after being asked nicely repeatedly, and even warned, the first penalty that jeff received was for -calling another member a name-. jeff berlin, resorting to name calling folks whose views differ from his.
.
that was just a single penalty, however. he subsequently earned 3 -more-, despite further admonishments, requests and even warnings on the part of the site administration staff, to observe our rules. he was also allowed no less than -12- specific instances of violations of our usage agreement that had no action taken against them whatsoever.
he was finally permanently banned from the site when he not only resorted to sockpuppeting wihle on a temp ban (if you don't know what that is, look it up. doing -that- is a perma-ban offense) but also posted this thread :
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=657293&highlight=
he made it clear he was not going to respect the rules of this site, nor the individuals responsible for running it, in numerous posts that still exist, and will -continue- to exist in perpetuity (no more perma-wipe of his participation here like the last time, regardless of threats.) i don't care who you are, you will not be welcome in our community if you refuse to abide by our rules.
and i'd just like to add that nobody here is more disappointed at this outcome than i am - i really was hoping that jeff was back for good.
apparently, though, a handful of folks who disagreed with him were too many for him to ignore long enough for us (site admin) to do our jobs and remove them.
as for ken smith, you can read his rants on his own forum about why he was banned from talkbass. you'll get a reasonable, albeit 1-sided, explanation of why that happened, although he doesn't mention the rampant attacks and threats he sent to chris fitzgerald (one of my fellow admins), among others, nor does he explain the promises he made after his -first- banning to play nice and behave. records of these have all been kept, however, and are available upon request
.
jeff berlin once had a pro forum here on talkbass, hence the two user names. his pro forum went pretty much like every other public communication i have ever seen him participate in on the internet, and elsewhere. unfortunately, his provocative stance and verbiage earned him endless ire from a few folks who disagreed with him, including quite a few teenagers with axes to grind. also unfortunately, instead of ignoring these folks and just presenting his message (which to -me- should be the primary job of an educator) he got so embroiled in these pissing contests that he eventually felt the need to "pack up his toys and go home", not ony leaving talkbass in a huff, but also demanding that paul, the site owner, completely delete all his messages from the database and remove his pro forum, with heavily implied threat. i considered that an unfortunate approach for a self-proclaimed champion of education to take - removing all his positive contributions in a scorched earth maneuver - especially considering the vast majority of participants here welcomed his participation, and only a small minority gave him grief for his "metronomes are bad/impossible to not sound like jaco on a fretless/"i" invented slap" pronouncements, but i also understood that the internet can be hard on folks sometimes, especially folks who have better things to do than engage in e-wrestling, and i gave him the benefit of the doubt as to his motivations.
regardless, as soon as someone takes that stance with us, flinging threats and insinuating legal action if we do not comply with their wishes, the standard policy at talkbass is a) never allow them back to the site and b) never engage in any communication with them whatsoever outside of -snail mail-.
just like with a lot of other things when it came to jeff, though, we were flexibile when he came back to our site to post, under the 2nd nickname, and field folks' questions. just like most folks, we were excited and glad to have him.
these threads initially turned out great - there were many folks who participated and got positive interraction out of them, but they also required -constant- babysitting on the part of the mod/admin staff to maintain the standards of our site in the communication between members.
a word about thread babysitting. we get approx 10,000 posts a day at talkbass. we do not have the manpower to babysit -any- thread. even if jesus, jaco, buddy rich and muhammed were having an open forum discussing odd time polyrhythms in angelic free jazz, we do not have the ability to handhold ever poster in a particular thread. we have a single site owner, 3 employed administrators, and a couple dozen volunteer moderators to handle ~130,000 members, a substantial percentage of which are active, and, as i said, 10,000 posts a day.
so eventually, due to the demands of running this site, we were forced to allow jeff's threads to be free in the forum playground, just like every other thread on this forum, hopefully with the understanding that the participants recognized that the site rules still applied, as they do in every thread. apparently this was also expected to be an exception to our rule, since members on both sides of the fence soon made a habit of breaking these rules, pretty often, including jeff.
however, none of the individuals called on breaking our rules responded with repeatedly insulting the site and the moderators, or their motivations, -except- jeff. this is also something that we normally do not tolerate, nor should we. after all, this is our site, and we run it as we see fit to provide the best environment for -everyone- to share and grow. we have the rules for a reason, and believe it or not, even though i'm directly responsible for many of them, i don't agree with -all- of them. however, i do recognize that every one of them is required to maintain this site at the level of quality that it is.
i can only imagine how i would be treated should i go to player's school of music, for instance, and stand up in the middle of the classroom and disrupt everyone's day with insults about the school itself and the individuals involved in running it. this was exactly what jeff has done, repeatedly, and yet this too was not penalized. again, an exception for jeff berlin was made.
after being asked nicely repeatedly, and even warned, the first penalty that jeff received was for -calling another member a name-. jeff berlin, resorting to name calling folks whose views differ from his.
. that was just a single penalty, however. he subsequently earned 3 -more-, despite further admonishments, requests and even warnings on the part of the site administration staff, to observe our rules. he was also allowed no less than -12- specific instances of violations of our usage agreement that had no action taken against them whatsoever.
he was finally permanently banned from the site when he not only resorted to sockpuppeting wihle on a temp ban (if you don't know what that is, look it up. doing -that- is a perma-ban offense) but also posted this thread :
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=657293&highlight=
he made it clear he was not going to respect the rules of this site, nor the individuals responsible for running it, in numerous posts that still exist, and will -continue- to exist in perpetuity (no more perma-wipe of his participation here like the last time, regardless of threats.) i don't care who you are, you will not be welcome in our community if you refuse to abide by our rules.
and i'd just like to add that nobody here is more disappointed at this outcome than i am - i really was hoping that jeff was back for good.
apparently, though, a handful of folks who disagreed with him were too many for him to ignore long enough for us (site admin) to do our jobs and remove them.as for ken smith, you can read his rants on his own forum about why he was banned from talkbass. you'll get a reasonable, albeit 1-sided, explanation of why that happened, although he doesn't mention the rampant attacks and threats he sent to chris fitzgerald (one of my fellow admins), among others, nor does he explain the promises he made after his -first- banning to play nice and behave. records of these have all been kept, however, and are available upon request
.
john turner
You don't want to do that. Trust me.
honesty is great. calling folks names is not honest. starting alt accounts (sock-puppeting) is not representing one's self honestly either. accusing the volunteer moderators of following some kind of agenda when they are just obviously trying to do their job is also not honest. all of these things have been done by jeff on our site.
and thanks, but we have 11 main rules at talkbass, not 300 pages - http://www.talkbass.com/forum/faq.php. they're mostly pretty common sense, golden-rule type things, and they are the single biggest reason why we are a healthy, growing and thriving community. it is -tragic- imo, that a talent as huge as jeff could not find some way to exist here within the bounds of those rules, when so many other tens of thousands of members have so little trouble doing so.
it's also quite ironic that you are complaining about honesty when you are a sockpuppet account of another member who has been permabanned for lying in our classifieds and ripping people off.
john turner
You don't want to do that. Trust me.
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