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Why you shouldn't pay in full upfront for a custom build

#23
Who pays in full up front? The standard among professional luthiers I know of is 50% up front to confirm the order and start the build, 50% + shipping when pictures of the completed bass are forwarded and the bass is ready to ship.

Anyone who deviates from that is their own worst enemy and is just asking for problems IMO.
 
#25
This is from the www.sadowsky.com:

Ordering a custom New York City Guitar or Bass

  • Visit our [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] page and the [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] for ideas on ordering options.
  • Download our price list for a full list of options.
  • Visit our [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] and fill it out to the best of your ability.
  • Roger Sadowsky will personally price out your build and work with you to refine your choices.
  • Once the custom build has been finalized, a PayPal invoice for a $500 deposit will be sent to you.
  • Most custom orders are sold with a 7 day return policy. Certain custom builds may require an additional deposit or a return fee.
  • We are currently quoting about 12 months for delivery.
 
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#26
I have had two custom built basses. Both from MGBass. They were fantastic instruments. The only reason I no longer have them is my tastes changed a bit.

Deal was half up front both times and remainder upon completion. The first was finished ahead of schedule; the second one went a week or two over. They balanced each other out! Haha

I would most definitely utilize Maurício again.
 
#28
I agree, don't pay in full upfront. It gives the builder no incentive whatsoever to finish your bass. That payday has come and gone and a less honourable builder could easily see that as an opportunity to just work on basses that he has to finish to collect the paycheque. You could be left looking like a total prat, without a bass to show for your generosity.

Also, if you are ordering a custom bass, make sure you can afford to service the payments or the balance at completion. If you're stretching your finances and assuming that the dough will come in each month, be careful. All it takes is one unplanned event, unexpected bill, redundancy or illness to throw that all in chaos.

Jerzy Drozd, for instance, offers a 'pay when it suits you' scheme, according to his website. However it is clear that if your project is shelved without any money coming in for too long, you could lose the bass. He would presumably then complete your instrument and sell it on the open market to see as much profit back as he could muster. Imagine pouring the cash in only to lose everything in the end and see your dream end up in someone else's closet. This is all stated on Jerzy's website, so if it did all go wrong for you it's not like you could claim he had surprised you with an unfair term.

I'm a cautious guy though. If I'm not buying outright I like to have the full balance set aside and service the payments as they come up from funds I already have.
 
#29
J.Wolf said:
Im gonna put this here, in hopes that it is helpful to someone along the way, ordering a custom bass. There's been a theme I've seen more and more recently about problems with delivery of custom orders, and they seem to follow a trend.

Essentially: Pay the deposit, no more, (and of course) no less. Typically this will be between 1/3 and 1/2 of the total price, due at the time of order to get your order solidified. The remainder due upon completion and imminent shipment of the bass. This total cost should hold, barring any changes in your order along the way. If the builder raises their prices sometime between your order and its delivery date, you should be able to expect that the cost at the time of your order is the cost you will pay. Price increases should only apply to orders placed after the time of the price increase.

Paying more than the deposit, either as an act of generosity/pseudophilanthropy, or an assumption that the builder will fast track, or put more effort into your bass out of appreciation is misplaced. You have an agreement: you pay the agreed upon amount at the set intervals, they make your bass to the specs you agreed on, in roughly the time they quoted it would be done.

Why do I say this? I have noticed about a half dozen cases of basses (from certain builders) that just dont ever seem to get done, for years and years beyond the quoted times. These builders seem to be delivering other basses during this time that were ordered after the orders in question, and the orders in question, by and large, are not super custom or requiring specialty parts that delay the build. In almost all of these situations Im referencing, the orders were paid in full upfront.

So what is happening? I would posit - and not to throw any builders under bus (notice im not naming names, and I think this should stay this way in this thread as its more a conceptual thing than an invitation to flame someone): the standard structure allows for builders to accept a non refundable deposit which protects them in case you ghost or cant pay when it comes time to deliver. the balance due upon completion ensures they get it done and prioritize fulfilling the agreement so they can be made whole on the project.

I do NOT mean to say that any of the builders in question are bad actors, or acting in bad faith in intention. What I think, is that life happens, money gets spent on overhead almost before it lands in their hands, and builders in survival mode force themselves or are forced into situations where they may be chasing "new money" as opposed to money they already have received. It's sucks, and I try to find ways to be empathetic, but I also feel for generous customers who feel like theyve gone above and beyond to support their builders, only to be strung along for years.

So yeah, I'm sure this raises big feelings from all sides. Maybe the info I've been getting is anecdotal and not reflective of the larger picture. Maybe you paid in full and got the bass of your dreams in record time. Thats fantastic. Im just trying to paint the picture that these systems and standards for these processes exist for a reason, and contain the correct checks and balances to make sure everyone is accountable to their agreements, when dozens of hours and thousands of dollars are on the line.

hope someone finds this helpful.
Click to expand...

You're too nice. Way too nice. Those out there that take full payment and don't deliver completed instruments, while at the same time delivering basses to other customers ARE ACTING WITH BAD INTENTIONS AND ARE IN FACT BAD ACTORS/PEOPLE. If they had a shred of integrity they would not do this.
 
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#32
Typically in a business service deal, the only time a provider demands full payment in advance is if there is serious concern about getting the money from the buyer. For example, an attorney representing a known criminal would be out of his or her mind to take on the case without money in the mitt. Otherwise, it's normal, reasonable practice to pay something or even nothing up front. Partial payment in advance may occur, and full payment upon delivery is typical. I'm a business service provider (ghostwriting) and usually don't get a dime until 30 or 45 days after completion of a project.

For a custom bass build, I can't imagine ever giving the builder 100% of a fee up front. That eliminates all incentive to deliver, especially if multiple workflows etc. cloud the delivery path.
 
#33
It really all depends on the industry as to what the standard is. Most bass builders with few exceptions use this model of 30-50% down etc...

The instances where this problem is occurring is when customers voluntarily pay all upfront for the reasons I mentioned, not because the builder required it. I do know at least a couple builders who require payment in full at the outset, but it's rare.
 
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#34
In a certain way, I see no problem paying full.

Being a little cocky here, my money = my rules.

I mean, using different words: I give the money you asked for, you give me your timeline.

Unless otherwise specified, like a disease, natural disaster or shortage of components, I'll demand that timeline to be accomplished.

And yes, being a custom build, I'll keep an eye on every step of the process, meaning I'll keep constantly checking the development of the build.
 
#35
You've got to be Mighty Special to deserve 100% cash up front for anything delivered later. If there's unusually high demand for the product, a builder might be able to charge 100% up front just because he or she can -- where else will someone be able to get the acclaimed new product made by that guy or woman? I'm dubious. In other industries, where fame vastly eclipses the invisible world of an electric bass builder, Top Tier movie stars or rock stars or sports stars cannot get 100% cash up front. It's always a percentage off what the project earns or a fee paid over time Even the U.S. president, Leader of the Free World, is paid once a month.
 
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#36
This happens more I think due to the online world and buying things off the WWW. Guys run across this or that builder's website, fall in love with the pretty pictures (it's weird how this parallels those middle age women that wind up sending their life savings to Francois who's stranded somewhere in Africa . . . . ), fall for the axe promised, and send off money (maybe partial, maybe all of it) and THEN find out the hard way they are now in bed with someone they really had no business doing business with. Inept at business at least, maybe an out and out con in the worst case.

So . . . . IF you're going to do this, BE SURE and deal with an established company with a long track record of satisfied customers that's been in business for more than a year or two. You'll have no problems with a custom build with folks like Alembic, a NY Spector or Sadowsky or MTD, real businesses that have been doing this for a long time. Otherwise, it's only a matter of time before we see another unfortunate thread about this guy is still waiting and still waiting and still waiting . . . . a shame, but almost entirely avoidable IF you do your homework BEFORE you reach for the debit card.

I ordered a custom Elan Five from Alembic, paid in full up front. I had ZERO worries that any monkey motion whatsoever would ensue, and sure enough, just a pinch over a year later, I'm playing it. I had zero worries dealing with the Wickershams.

THAT's how you want to do it.
 
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#37
I agree with the OP's premise, but honestly anybody that would pay full upfront is obviously just begging for problems. It's very well documented how bad some of these builders are at delivering even with the carrot of 1/2 or 2/3 still on the table. Imagine trying to get your bass after they've had ALL your money for 2+years lol. This is not exclusive to custom basses of course. My wife has had a couple pairs of custom earrings made and honestly you could swap the vendor name and the word "earring" for "bass" and it would read like a talkbass thread.
 
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#38
I've paid in full at order time for a few basses with people that I've done previous business with. My first commissioned build was with Zachary Guitars. I'm surprised I ever did another custom order after that. I cancelled the order shortly after placing it, which is bad on me. But he completely changed his demeanor and everything after placing the order. It went from "Oh, that sounds great" to "No, this is what I'm going to build" and his ideas were not lining up with what I wanted. Not remotely. The cancellation was before any work happened and I think he made up a $350 fee that wasn't on the website. But at least I didn't lose everything that I paid. That one, I kinda knew that he was difficult to work with but I convinced myself that it would be different with me. The difficulty gave it a little more glimmer in a weird way.
 
#39
My band is recording an album, and the guy doing the recording asked for half up front, half at delivery of the completed files. My other two members of the band insist on paying all at once because paying twice is too much work and "we trust him". Well I'm insisting on not paying any of my share until the files are done if they are going all in. He's already gotten more than the half he asked for and there needs to be some incentive to finish and not let life get in the way.
 

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