Why you shouldn't pay in full upfront for a custom build

[Trabeen]

Agreed, my personal pucker factor increases exponentially whenever I am anywhere near this situation.

Otherwise, it reminds me a little of the thing where someone stops in oncoming traffic to let you turn left in front of them, causing potential issues/danger for the people around them, out of a desire to be nice or polite.

 

[Michael Stanley 2112]

Yeah but its a squier.

Maybe it's a custom-built Squier?

I have to add this: my luthier refuses to take anything more than what he needs for materials, up-front. I've tried to give him half and he won't take it.

Of course, we've been doing business together for quite some time.

He's on Fakebook. If anyone wants his ID, send me a private message.

 

[gln1955]

In a certain way, I see no problem paying full.

Being a little cocky here, my money = my rules.

I mean, using different words: I give the money you asked for, you give me your timeline.

Unless otherwise specified, like a disease, natural disaster or shortage of components, I'll demand that timeline to be accomplished.

And yes, being a custom build, I'll keep an eye on every step of the process, meaning I'll keep constantly checking the development of the build.

So, you demand the timeline to be accomplished. What do you do if it isn't? Threaten them with harsh language?

That's the underlying problem with disreputable builders. Theoretically, you could sue them, but practically, suing someone in another state or country over a few thousand dollar contract and then collecting is not easy or worthwhile.

 

[james condino]

Being a highly skilled artisan and being a skilled accountant are often not universal combined skills...

Can I offer some perspective from the other side?

My current model is similar to what Jake suggests, but I'll offer a few contrasts. Partial deposit down- NOT refundable because I have to spent it to create your build and / or replace seasoned materials from my inventory and chop up good stuff that other folks would have paid for. I usually prefer a larger balance on the back end.

Most people don't seem to understand what it REALLY takes to build a custom instrument. You need years of experience, most have at least $50k in shop equipment (for a modest shop), hundreds of hours built time...et cetera. I'm the shop electrician and plumber and accountant and maintain the website and 50 other hats. If we agree on a $6000 build, unless you show up with a brown paper bag full of cash and a bottle of corn liquor, the taxes and banks and credit cards take $1500 off the top (down to $4500) take another $1-2k (now down to $2500) off that for fancy woods, cases, electronics, if I sub out something like cnc'd inlays or a nitro finish from Matt Eady I'm down another $1k or more, leaving maybe $1500 left for 100-250 hours of labor. That is if everything works out the first attempt. After all of that, Mrs C and the little ones take another half. Out of a $6000 initial project, I just spent a couple of months out of my life to wind up with $750 in my pocket. Oooooh- rah....if all of this takes place through a dealer, they take the first cut of another 25% or more, so my end numbers may be even less....

I keep extremely detailed notes and time studies of all of my work; something that most builders are terrified of!

In 2008 I was backordered eight years (8!!!!). It was a curse and a tremendous burden to have business agreements with people during challenging economic times. Knowing how much the demand was increasing, with corresponding price increases, I offered a number of people the option to pay in full to lock in the current pricing. It is an economic incentive for the buyer. As a builder, I have to be very good at managing all of the needed supplies. If I cut open a $1900 Brazilian rosewood or other exotic board specifically purchased for that project, nobody gives a $#!t if there is a giant inclusion or knot or chipmunk living inside it. They want their damned bass and in their mind, they already paid for it. As a double bass builder, I can easily be into it for $4000 or more in materials, and that is if I have no problems.

Even knowing the delayed delivery time, a few folks turned into absolute nightmares. As soon as the $$$ was exchanged, they became predatory abusive stalking @$$#*&!$. I can deal with that, but the real frustration was faithfully delivering product and then two weeks later seeing it for sale up on the big websites for double the price. I've had their lawyers start up a case against me and I've had to sick my lawyers on them when things fell apart. Shady things that people would never do with an established brick and mortar store, they try all of the time with small builders. I hate how much as an adult I have to use lawyers for so many situations that are simply trying for an equal respect & perspective, be it business or real estate or anything else.

Are all of you aware that almost universally, we builders share "no fly" lists with each other about specific people who we will never do business with and tell them the same????? We all do this, in the same way that club owners will not hire your band because you were unprofessional at another club.

There were people who backed out of very custom orders that nobody else wanted and I could not sell.

There were people who two weeks before delivery threw a temper tantrum, changing their mind and insisting it was blonde and the complex 'burst colors be removed.

Here is another one- I did a major historic restoration on a $15k plus acoustic instrument for a fellow who paid for the work online but has waited SIX years so far and will not pickup his instrument. He won't pay for the shipping. He won't come get it...nada. SIX years I've been a storage unit & the laws in North Carolina about abandoned property are nothing like other states.

These days, as a builder and small business owner, I don't do special orders with people I have no past history with. I have popular models that I build on spec. When they are completed, you can impulse buy them and move on. In a buyer's head often what they hear on their end of the telephone is, " This is cool. I'm excited for my new build. I've been waiting for a while." What often comes out on my end of the phone is, " Where's my F%$#@!^& guitar you mother%$# @$$hole my wife found out how much I spent. I'm in over my head and I lost my job I hate you I hate you I hate you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!", and all of their current life's problems get focused on your slab of wood art project.....

Humans are flawed creatures, so negotiating both sides of the conversation are delicate. I've had plenty of people air their dirty laundry with me out in the open. I see no reason to hide names; in fact it is a disservice for all of the folks here in this community who come looking for a heads up. Name names, or it is just hearsay.

Wanna know the biggest irony of this thread? Just a few days ago, Jake & I had a completely unrelated conversation about doing a collaborative build this year!

 

[conttador]

I come to the TB classifieds, pick out the bass that someone waited to have built, pay for it and in about a week I have a custom bass that someone no longer wants… Many of those on the classifieds…

 

[sylvanbass]

Agree. I've done a few custom things through builders before. Only pay the minimum to start the job. That puts the fire in their ass to finish it and get the rest of there money. I only did those custom orders when I had the money in hand to actually be able to pay in full if it was something off the wall somewhere. I'd take the rest of the money I would owe at completion and move it to another account that isn't my day to day spending account.

 

[J.Wolf]

good post @james condino, there is a whole lot going on on the builder end, and often their perspectives on the builder/client relationship is not well understood by customers. I know enough builders that have had to deal with EXTREMELY unrealistic client expectations, abusive interactions, and lame treatment by customers. in fact, to be fair, pound for pound, nightmare customers are way more prevalent than shifty builders. And at least you can research known builders these days and get a heads up of there are issues with them. Builders dont have that luxury.

But in the end I think the takeaway should be that when you order a bass, you're ideally engaging in a collaborative relationship with the maker, and the more you can rely on clear respectful agreements, open communication and mutual accountability, the better the outcome is likely to be, on both creative and business fronts.

 

[Bass Momma]

I’ve had fantastic service from Fodera.
There is another famous custom shop, dating back to the 70s, who IMHO don’t have it any more. Too old? Delays, delays, then problems with what’s delivered, then delays, delays… then they damaged it so badly it was a write off. I say no names, but caveat emptor.

 

[JimmyM]

@james condino , your point about getting stiffed for custom builds nobody else wants is well taken. Most of the luthiers I spoke to when I wanted a custom 5 didn’t want to do my crazy ideas, I believe for that reason. I am, however, glad they talked me out of putting a whammy bar on it…I ordered a 4 from them a few years later and made up for it

Anyway, I think folks as buyers just have to accept that custom bass buying is not without its financial risks. Even with the most honest builders, sometimes fate intervenes, and there’s nothing you can do. Health problems and accidents can end these small operations just like that. And I don’t know about you guys, but I wouldn’t have the heart to demand a refund from someone while he’s hooked up to life support.

I’m not saying don’t buy booteeky custom basses…when you connect with one that’s made to your liking, it’s pretty sweet. But just know the risks, do your research, and most of the time you do get a killer bass out of it, God willin’ and the cricks don’t rise, as they say.

 

[joelns]

I'm working with a luthier on a custom 5'er. Once we worked out the details, deposit was enough to cover materials cost. We're only a couple of weeks in, but he's been sending pictures. He does have a day job, so working time is limited, and I'm not the first in queue. That said, I am getting progress pictures and he's communicating on a reasonably regular basis. I'm expecting another 12 to 16 weeks.

So far it's been a really good experience.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Im gonna put this here, in hopes that it is helpful to someone along the way, ordering a custom bass. There's been a theme I've seen more and more recently about problems with delivery of custom orders, and they seem to follow a trend.

Essentially: Pay the deposit, no more, (and of course) no less. Typically this will be between 1/3 and 1/2 of the total price, due at the time of order to get your order solidified. The remainder due upon completion and imminent shipment of the bass. This total cost should hold, barring any changes in your order along the way. If the builder raises their prices sometime between your order and its delivery date, you should be able to expect that the cost at the time of your order is the cost you will pay. Price increases should only apply to orders placed after the time of the price increase.

Paying more than the deposit, either as an act of generosity/pseudophilanthropy, or an assumption that the builder will fast track, or put more effort into your bass out of appreciation is misplaced. You have an agreement: you pay the agreed upon amount at the set intervals, they make your bass to the specs you agreed on, in roughly the time they quoted it would be done.

Why do I say this? I have noticed about a half dozen cases of basses (from certain builders) that just dont ever seem to get done, for years and years beyond the quoted times. These builders seem to be delivering other basses during this time that were ordered after the orders in question, and the orders in question, by and large, are not super custom or requiring specialty parts that delay the build. In almost all of these situations Im referencing, the orders were paid in full upfront.

So what is happening? I would posit - and not to throw any builders under bus (notice im not naming names, and I think this should stay this way in this thread as its more a conceptual thing than an invitation to flame someone): the standard structure allows for builders to accept a non refundable deposit which protects them in case you ghost or cant pay when it comes time to deliver. the balance due upon completion ensures they get it done and prioritize fulfilling the agreement so they can be made whole on the project.

I do NOT mean to say that any of the builders in question are bad actors, or acting in bad faith in intention. What I think, is that life happens, money gets spent on overhead almost before it lands in their hands, and builders in survival mode force themselves or are forced into situations where they may be chasing "new money" as opposed to money they already have received. It's sucks, and I try to find ways to be empathetic, but I also feel for generous customers who feel like theyve gone above and beyond to support their builders, only to be strung along for years.

So yeah, I'm sure this raises big feelings from all sides. Maybe the info I've been getting is anecdotal and not reflective of the larger picture. Maybe you paid in full and got the bass of your dreams in record time. Thats fantastic. Im just trying to paint the picture that these systems and standards for these processes exist for a reason, and contain the correct checks and balances to make sure everyone is accountable to their agreements, when dozens of hours and thousands of dollars are on the line.

hope someone finds this helpful.

Wise man say, "Forgiveness is devine, but never post full price for late pizza."




You don't pay anyone till the job is done. Ever. Not even family. Especially not family.

 

[james condino]

And I don’t know about you guys, but I wouldn’t have the heart to demand a refund from someone while he’s hooked up to life support.

I once gave a full refund to a guy who got a terminal cancer diagnosis about 90% into the build- it was already strung up in the white and dialed in, but no finish yet; literally a matter of weeks before delivery. I didn't like anything about the karma with that, so I gave him a full refund, including the deposit and wished him good luck with the limited time he had left; approx. $3k loss from my end. Six months later the guy calls me back, said he was cured, and ordered another much more complicated instrument. Two weeks after delivery, I received a secured document from his lawyer (4000 miles away) claiming discrepancies in the build and wanting another full refund, and wanting to meet up in court on his turf. It took six months and $3500 in lawyer fees to convince his lawyer that making business decisions while still undergoing chemo treatment was not the best idea. In the end I lost $3500 in legal fees and another $3k for a 50% settlement. That was my last custom build with someone I do not know....

Another time I had someone from the UK who owns a massive shop buy one of my spec builds. All good. Six months later he calls up and orders a very specific, very custom build with claims that if he likes it, he will order a half dozen more for the shop later this year. I build it exactly to the specs of his other with the additional custom mods. Along the way he freaks out over a week delivery delay due to him changing his mind and wanting a new pickguard to be made from African Blackwood. I didn't have any in stock, so a week to procure and make the damned thing was a personal record for me. The day it was delivered, he looses it and claims it is all wrong, even though we have it in writing and is well documented. He starts an on line hate campaign that lasted for almost a year. The guy literally lost his $#!t. Come to find out, he never mentioned that he had this exact same instrument built before by eleven (11!) of the best builders in the world and was never satisfied with any of their builds, some costing 10 times what I charged him....

A friend of mine had a scenario where the customer that lost it was very web savy. He somehow managed to hack into and reroute all web searches for her & her website to his fanatic badmouthing & bashing site ripping her to shreds so much that she stopped doing any builds except through dealers who she already knew. Everyone now pays an extra 35% in dealer fees thanks to that one guy.

Anyone who operates a small business runs into these type of scenarios on a regular basis. The thing with artisans and craftspeople is that they tend to be more emotionally involved in their creations, so they tend to think they are immune to it. Combine that with an actual profit margin that borders on poverty level and things fall apart fast. Have you noticed how novice builders will agree to almost any crazy $#!t people dream up, yet established builders have very set parameters and show no fear in telling you, "NO!" or maybe ,"No thank you."???? NTY is a polite way of saying, "NFW...I got burned by that one too many times already!"

 

[cnltb]

This might be a joke that went over my head, but some actually do pay 100% up front.

There is always the 'famous few'.

 

[Hawk256]

I have a policy that I don't pay in full for anyhing (not just basses) until the job is complete. If that doesn't suit the other person then I will find someone else to do the work. I can understand the risk for both parties involved in a highly customized build but I have to look out for my interests first. If the other party is uncomfortable with that arrangement then it's just not meant to be.

 

[Levent]

A luthier I worked with convinced me the same. He said he could give priority to me, 6 months time would reduce to 3 months If I paid upfront. Me, being a 22-23 year old newbie was thrilled and accepted It.
I called him every week after the initial 3 months for the next 2 years. He always reassured me with the updates he was doing to the shops, new hardware and stuff and tried to convince me that It will turn out better. (Turns out he delivered a bass every other month that was ordered after me but was cunning enough put them on socials with right prolonged order.)
After the 2 years he sent a picture with bolt on body, supposed to be set neck. We had a long arguement but he was really a mouth diarrhea. He ended up using different top than initially agreed too.
He tried to convince me to other, cheaper brand bridges, piezo, pickups, buffer and preamp over the time too than initially agreed, saying that those were better for the tone I'm seeking and stuff, which I fought back. He threatened me with another 6 months to a year of wait and used a different bridge, piezo and buffer regardless of my whining.
At the end he tried to convince me again for regular pickup covers and plastic knobs.. I was a kid but c'mon.. what the..
The day I was receiving he forgot to fill side of the frets, he tried to convince me again It was better for a stable neck and acoustics which I didn't even believe and waited until he filled those, he forgot bottom ends..
In the end the bass wasn't even close to what we initially agreed on. Had real ergonomic mistakes, my hand wouldn't fit between neck and lower horn. He mixed single coil pickups with humbucker as a mistake and blamed the manufacturer ( Kent Armstrong ) which took me 6 moths and 4-5 half a day round trips to the mechanic in town he had a deal with to find It out what was the noise I'm getting with the humbuckers. Inside of electric cavity was like a warzone of bad soldering and mixed cables freely roaming around. My father being and electoronics engineer told me to return It the first day lol.
I returned the bass after that, he blamed me for not realising It for 6 months and called me "just a student with no knowledge" (his mechanic and he didn't.. how could I) and It took him another 2 years to pay back fully which I paid upfront.
The bass became bass of the week at No Treble , you never know the full story of those "looker" basses. I won't be a buzzkill and share the name too. Bass of the Week: Turan Guitars TG Semi-Hollow Bass
Here It is with my cat to scale

 

[Bruce Johnson]

For any of you interested in hearing more of the Luthiers' side of the story, there's a classic old thread here on TB explaining the financial side of being a Luthier. The theme of the thread is : How much should a custom Luthier make per hour? The thread is from 2012!

How much should a custom luthier make per hour?



Here's my main post in that thread, and there many others by other Luthiers:

I'm a pro Luthier/Builder. Most of you would consider me successful at it. I've been doing it nearly full time for 21 years, I have a good reputation, and I usually have a waiting list for my basses and services. But let me enlighten you with the ugly financial reality of this business. The net income numbers some of you are tossing around are pure fantasy. Most of us Luthiers make a net hourly pay less than minimum wage. When I visit my tax accountant every year, he shakes his head and tells me to shut it down and go get a real job. I'm not kidding.

First things first: I've set a basic rate of $45 per hour. This is not my "pay", it's what's called an Hourly Composite Rate for the business. I need to make an average of about $30 per hour for 40 hours per week, just to pay the overhead (rent on my building, utilities, insurance, etc.). Those are fixed costs that have to be paid each month. So, if I charge $45 per hour, and complete 40 hours of Billable Work (see below) in a week, my actual pay is really only $15 per hour. That's $600 per week, which is less than most people with real jobs make.

But here's the missing part: Trying to complete 40 hours of Billable Work in a week is much, much harder than it first appears. I only get paid $45 per hour for time spent actually at the bench, working on an instrument to be sold. I don't get paid anything for answering the door, talking on the phone to customers, writing e-mails, writing on forums, sweeping the floor, sorting lumber stock, ordering parts, driving to the lumber yard, etc., etc. I get paid $0 per hour for all that time, but yet it's all completely necessary to run the business.

For those of you who've never run your own business, that's the fundamental difference between having a job and working for yourself. At a job, you automatically get money for every hour that you are there, almost regardless of what you do or how hard you work or how many parts you successfully make. Working for yourself, how much you make per hour is completely dependent on how many parts you successfully complete per week. You can seemingly bust ass all week and end up making almost nothing. In reality, I work about 80 hours per week, every week, and I'm doing well if I actually complete 40 hours of billable work. That's a 50% ratio of Billable hours to Total hours, which isn't bad for a small business. Many small businesses have a much lower ratio than that, like 20%-30%. But what it means to me is that I actually get paid only $7.50 per hour, for all those hours, and only if I complete those 40 hours of billable work.

Now, most "real" businesses charge a much higher hourly rate. For example, most small auto repair shops charge $75-$100 per hour. The mechanic working there makes $20 per hour if he's good. The rest of it is for the fixed overhead costs and that ratio of Billable Hours to Total Hours, like I described above. By any standard small business model, I should be charging $75-$100 per hour. When you think about it, my business is very similar to an auto repair shop in the size and costs. My next door neighbor used to be a one-man Porsche repair shop, and we used to compare notes. He charged $75 per hour, which he said was the minimum he needed to pay the overhead and take home a modest wage for himself. He thought I was completely nuts to be only charging $45 per hour. I mean, we had identical size shops, with the same overhead rates. I'm older than him with much more education and experience. I even used to be a Porsche mechanic!

Okay, so why don't I charge $75-$100 per hour, like I really should? Because you guys (the customers) won't pay that much. It's as simple as that.

Look at it from the cost side:
A hand-made custom bass neck takes 8-12 hours to build. I'm not speculating. I've built hundreds of them, and I keep very accurate time records. The raw materials (wood, metal, and fretwire) cost about $60. So, at $45/hr plus materials, I price a 10 hour neck at $510 plus shipping. That's just for a basic custom bass neck. If I charged $75/hr, it would be $810. At $100/hr, it would be $1060. So, how many of you would pay $1060 for a custom neck? Just about none. But is that unreasonable? It's the same quality of neck that you'd find on a $2000-$3000 bass. But if you read TB, you'd know that any neck over $250 is waaaay overpriced and not worth it. That's the way this business is. Most instrument customers are completely spoiled by two decades of very cheap imports, and don't appreciate the work and costs that go into building a custom bass. That's the main reason why I no longer build custom necks at the retail level. It doesn't make any sense financially.

Full instruments are the same way. My new AMB-2 Scroll Bass, which I've just developed and introduced this year, takes me about 60 hours each to build. The materials costs are $320: (Case: $110; wood: $50; metal: $30; purchased hardware: $90; plating: $40). So, with those materials costs and charging $45/hr, I need to sell them for $3000. That's about right for the market (I hope!), in terms of what customers are willing to pay. But at $75/hr, I'd have to get $4820, and at $100/hr I'd have to get $6320. It would be very hard to sell them at those prices.

And that's my simpler, lower-priced model. My fancy Series IV AUB-2 models that I built from 2006-2011 took 110 hours to build with about $400 in materials. I was selling them for $3900 and losing my ass on every one. That's why I stopped building them. If I priced them at $100/hr, they would be $11,400. That's nice to dream about, but not realistic.

Now, I'm a little unusual as a builder, because I build almost everything myself. I make most of my own metal hardware (bridges, tailpieces, etc.), plus I build my own pickups from scratch, and do all my own painting, in addition to the woodworking. So, my cost numbers have higher labor hours and lower materials costs than most builders. If I were to offer a custom made high-end Fender-like bass, using purchased hardware and pickups, and still painting it myself, the costs would be around $700 for materials and 35 hours labor. At $45/hr, I'd have to sell it for $2275. To me, that's about as low as you can go, a minimum realistic price for a custom made, basic pattern instrument. To me, any builder who sells for less than that hasn't really counted up the labor hours. Or they have a shop situation with no overhead. More likely, they are trying to set their prices based on what customers are telling them, and not understanding how much money they are losing.

Again, that's the nature of the business. Being a Luthier is a "Glamour" business. Lots of guys want to do it because it looks like fun. And it is fun and rewarding building basses. As a hobby or a tax-writeoff sideline. But trying to do it as a rational business to make a living from is just nuts. The finances don't add up.

If all of the above isn't depressing enough, that all assumes that everything goes great. Unfortunately, this business also has an enormous risk factor. When building an instrument, there are hundreds of ways that you can make a small mistake, and end up ruining weeks or months of work. A small slip in a router fixture, a bad piece of wood, misreading a dimension, dropping a tool on a finished paint job, forgetting some feature that the customer asked for, etc., etc. These tiny things can instantly cost you an entire weeks' worth of billable hours, or more. Remember, this is a fixed-price business. If I agree to build you an AMB-2 for $3000, that's assuming that it's going to take me 60 hours to build. But that's the best case scenario, with no mistakes. If I get a couple of spots of contaminant in my spray gun and end up having to repaint it twice to get it right (a true story), I end up spending 90 hours on that instrument. And nobody is going to pay for those extra 30 hours. While I'm repairing that damage, I'm not working on other billable hour jobs. And the overall problem is that there are so many fussy steps involved in building an instrument, that it's nearly impossible to go all the way through the process without making any mistakes. Only after years of making the same instruments do you eliminate most of the mistakes. The financial penalties are huge, and you can easily get into a position where you've already lost so much money on an instrument that it seems pointless to finish it. If you know that you're going to make less than $5 per hour, and you still have a long way to go, is it even worth it? Meanwhile, the customer is calling you every day asking if it's done yet. See the thread about MikeysWood.

Also, custom build jobs always have ten times the potential for mistakes and labor over-runs. Trying to do custom builds on fixed prices is setting yourself up for huge losses. There are so many ways for things to go wrong and wipe out any money you would have made. That's why I stopped doing custom builds a long time ago. Happy customers, beautiful basses, and $5 per hour. Most Luthiers, if they survive more than a few years, eventually move to building only their own models with a fixed set of options.

I hope this helps you understand how the finances work in this business. And why we Luthiers can sometimes be cranky and evasive and refuse to answer the phone.

To go back to the original posters' question: Most small shop electric bass Luthiers effectively charge $35-$45 per hour. That's driven by the market; what customers are willing to pay. Established guys like me get "paid" $15 per hour at best. Guys getting started are usually making approximately nothing. You can usually make better money just doing repairs, with some careful management. The setup guy at Guitar Center makes more than I do.

So, you're probably wondering why I keep doing this. In 1995 I was making 100K at a corporate job. Last year, I busted ass all year and grossed about 55K. On paper, my "pay" was less than 5K, for the whole year! I barely paid the overhead and the groceries each month. I work 7 days a week and hardly have any money left over to play with. I couldn't possibly support a family or a wife doing this. But I'm okay with that. I'm a hermit mad scientist wacko type, and I've chosen this lifestyle.

 

[Tom Bomb]

My guy didn't take one penny. The job was done — took over six months. He called and invited me over for a look at the final product. I had the moola with me but he wouldn't have taken it, if I wasn't satisfied. I was over-the-moon. Gave him the money, grilled him for a little while — asking a number of silly questions, like where to put the strap-button. He gave me a splash of lemon oil that lasted for a good decade — before I raced home for a proper squiz. So unbelievably cool. And it only got better and better, as the years marched on.

I know he had everything in stock before he started — I allegedly hand-picked the wood (I needed help). He always had a number of irons in the fire, so-to-speak — Neil Kinman, among others, was using his CNC machine and buying wood from him, so I guess the money was coming in. Top bloke. I have been back once or twice, since then
​

 

[jimmydean]

Paid in full......still waiting on that Stradivarius .

 

[Microbass]

So, you're saying don't give the builder all the carrots to start with - save a few as incentive to actually finish?

I can relate to this. Plumber installed a new central heating system for me last Summer. He was also going to be sorting the new plumbing for my kitchen renovation which was finished in December. We paid for the kitchen work with the central heating costs at the same time.

• I have a leak under the sink for the tap feed which started 4 weeks ago
• One of the radiators came off the wall cause the screws he used were too small. This was 5 weeks ago
• The boiler's condensate is currently in a temporary position which when condensating is dripping onto an exterior wall and has stained the rough casting, so I'm going to need to paint one full side of the house which will not be fun.
• The outside tap is on the same feed as the washing machine, meaning I risked the pipes freezing because I couldn't shut off the tap feed without losing my washing machine. This is part of remedial work still to be done along with the condensate
• There are a couple other jobs that have come up which will need to be address of which I'll be paying for including some materials.

All in all I owe the guy about £200, but I'm the lowest dominator in his work load cause 200 is peanuts compared to the other work he's getting. Hindsight would've been to pay for the central heating and then again for remedials and kitchen stuff once done. The motivation for him to and sort everything is pretty low, cause he's already made his profit from me.

Annoyingly he's a friend as well, so it's been a little difficult to convey how angry I am without costing the friendship and potentially delaying work further, or worse, paying extra to someone new to do the work.

 

[tb-player]

Im gonna put this here, in hopes that it is helpful to someone along the way, ordering a custom bass. There's been a theme I've seen more and more recently about problems with delivery of custom orders, and they seem to follow a trend.

Essentially: Pay the deposit, no more, (and of course) no less. Typically this will be between 1/3 and 1/2 of the total price, due at the time of order to get your order solidified. The remainder due upon completion and imminent shipment of the bass. This total cost should hold, barring any changes in your order along the way. If the builder raises their prices sometime between your order and its delivery date, you should be able to expect that the cost at the time of your order is the cost you will pay. Price increases should only apply to orders placed after the time of the price increase.

Paying more than the deposit, either as an act of generosity/pseudophilanthropy, or an assumption that the builder will fast track, or put more effort into your bass out of appreciation is misplaced. You have an agreement: you pay the agreed upon amount at the set intervals, they make your bass to the specs you agreed on, in roughly the time they quoted it would be done.

Why do I say this? I have noticed about a half dozen cases of basses (from certain builders) that just dont ever seem to get done, for years and years beyond the quoted times. These builders seem to be delivering other basses during this time that were ordered after the orders in question, and the orders in question, by and large, are not super custom or requiring specialty parts that delay the build. In almost all of these situations Im referencing, the orders were paid in full upfront.

So what is happening? I would posit - and not to throw any builders under bus (notice im not naming names, and I think this should stay this way in this thread as its more a conceptual thing than an invitation to flame someone): the standard structure allows for builders to accept a non refundable deposit which protects them in case you ghost or cant pay when it comes time to deliver. the balance due upon completion ensures they get it done and prioritize fulfilling the agreement so they can be made whole on the project.

I do NOT mean to say that any of the builders in question are bad actors, or acting in bad faith in intention. What I think, is that life happens, money gets spent on overhead almost before it lands in their hands, and builders in survival mode force themselves or are forced into situations where they may be chasing "new money" as opposed to money they already have received. It's sucks, and I try to find ways to be empathetic, but I also feel for generous customers who feel like theyve gone above and beyond to support their builders, only to be strung along for years.

So yeah, I'm sure this raises big feelings from all sides. Maybe the info I've been getting is anecdotal and not reflective of the larger picture. Maybe you paid in full and got the bass of your dreams in record time. Thats fantastic. Im just trying to paint the picture that these systems and standards for these processes exist for a reason, and contain the correct checks and balances to make sure everyone is accountable to their agreements, when dozens of hours and thousands of dollars are on the line.

hope someone finds this helpful.

I can attest to this first-hand. Pay the minimum required and nothing more til you have to. Builders need the cash so they’ll prioritize the ones that will get them more money flowing in.