You talk as if you’re the one calling the shots but remember: he has your money and your bass.
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Why you shouldn't pay in full upfront for a custom build
- Thread starter J.Wolf
- Start date
You talk as if you’re the one calling the shots but remember: he has your money and your bass.
- Apr 29, 2003
- 9,078
- 9,800
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- Contributor- Bass Musician Magazine | Marketing Manager- Trickfish Amplification
I see people drawing comparisons to payment for services in trades like plumbing, electrical etc… and I think it’s important to point out A: how remarkably different the workflow and financial circumstances are between something like that and custom bass building, and B: I will just speak for myself, but when I hire a plumber, I am not hoping that they fix my sink in a way that inspires joy, creativity, and musical expansion for my sink that I will continue to create art with for hopefully the rest of my life. Hence, my earlier statement about the importance of fostering healthy positive relationships if you want the best outcomes.
ed maday, a wonderful violin maker here on long island, made my custom ordered upright bass.
the deposit he asked for added up to (just doing this math now) 1/50th the cost of the total order.
his reasoning was that he doesn't want to have a bunch of my money in the event that anything happens to him, the shop, etc.
paid in full when the bass was done and i've loved it ever since.
i understand this to be unusual, but i think he's right for wanting to get paid only when the instrument is done.
obviously, if you are running a workshop, and need 30-50% up front there is abundant valid justification for it. But, having had two instruments on order from Andrea Spada (paid 50% up front for both) at the time of his passing, really makes me appreciate the logic of someone who wants just a little bit of money to secure the order, and gets paid the end.
i'm so, so lucky (aside from andrea spada, sadly) to have ordered many custom instruments over the years and never had anything but good experiences. but, i did a ton of research on these people and only ordered from someone that a personal friend highly recommended.
the deposit he asked for added up to (just doing this math now) 1/50th the cost of the total order.
his reasoning was that he doesn't want to have a bunch of my money in the event that anything happens to him, the shop, etc.
paid in full when the bass was done and i've loved it ever since.
i understand this to be unusual, but i think he's right for wanting to get paid only when the instrument is done.
obviously, if you are running a workshop, and need 30-50% up front there is abundant valid justification for it. But, having had two instruments on order from Andrea Spada (paid 50% up front for both) at the time of his passing, really makes me appreciate the logic of someone who wants just a little bit of money to secure the order, and gets paid the end.
i'm so, so lucky (aside from andrea spada, sadly) to have ordered many custom instruments over the years and never had anything but good experiences. but, i did a ton of research on these people and only ordered from someone that a personal friend highly recommended.
You talk as if you’re the one calling the shots but remember: he has your money and your bass.
I really don't know what kind of people you've been dealing with before. But as long as I'm hiring someone by contract to do a job or project for me, there are no excuses. Except what I mentioned before.
And that's what contracts are for, right?
Or you're thinking I'm going to throw my money right away without any precautions on my side?
The less opportunities you give someone to try to screw you over, the less chance of that happening.
But that's me, and not you.
"Los otros son los otros"
Samesies. Occasionally, I see a nice import bass in the TB classifies or on Reverb and do the same, with the same result, except it takes a few days.
I'm not acting superior, BTW. Although my tastes run toward instruments that are simpler than most custom builds, I'd love to have someone build an instrument just for me. Whether I could delay gratification that much remains to be seen.
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i have to say this. i agree with the half up front, balance when complete concept 100%. what i completely disagree with about this thread, is the not naming of names. the not flaming of builders. 100% WRONG. i feel that we should totally out the builders and totally flame them. as a victim of bogus builder in the past, i feel that it is our duty as a community, to look out for each other. and we owe it to each other to try to protect each other from shady builders. i mean, honestly, we come here for advice. should that not include, "avoid this person because they won't deliver!"? i would name the name of my bad experience if it were not for the fact that it was so long ago and the criminal vanished from the face of the earth. he even went so far as to claim he was working with some somewhat high profile players that vouched for him and how he was in the process of building them a custom instrument. all of which never materialized, swaying the decision to pull the trigger for the rest of us. so, none of us should keep quiet about any builders shortcomings. the darren huffs and blast cult criminals have a special place in hell reserved for their pathetic asses
You must never have had an instrument order go bad. Do you seriously believe that the contract will protect you?
Actually I did. But like I was saying, there are situations out of the control of the builder, and we have to think about. If the solution works for me, nuff said. Otherwise, let's find a middle ground that works for both of us and let life go on. No need to end in a conflict or drama.
Yes, I do. But first and foremost important, being wise while choosing the builder is another thing that helps to prevent any trouble.
But, again, that's me...
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The OP never said that the bad actors should not be named. He only said that it's up to those harmed by the bad actors to do the naming, rather than spreading hearsay that might be exaggerated or outright false.
I was one of many burned by Darrin Huff, but most people know about him already.
I asked this question previously.
Some people are totally naive about how our justice system works or really haven't thought through the scenario.
As far as contracts, they are only as good as the people who make them. Sure you have piece of paper that you can take to court but unless you are buying a super expensive bass is it really worth it? I know a guy who won a lawsuit against someone else (not bass related) for around 5 grand and could never collect. His only option was to go back to court and try to get a lien. Long story but it didn't work out in the long run. It's been 15 years and he stil hasn't been paid. Just because you win doesn't mean you "win".
- Apr 22, 2016
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- Breaking even is the new making money.
This is good advice. Even if none of the delivery / build time issues with these builders are conscious decisions (as you said, you don't believe them to be bad actors), there's a certain psychological aspect that works in the background - I certainly know this from my own experience with graphic design, and I'll give you an example: I've finished a project (so I believe) and I've received my payment, but now the client wants some changes. They're pretty minor and not a big deal, but I've already been paid and there's less of a fire to get the thing done. Now, I still do it as fast as I can, but the feeling without money pending is DIFFERENT. And I'd imagine it's not so different with builders.
So Anyway, some small instrument shops excel at woodworking, building and fixing things.
Business....not so much.
Business....not so much.
In my country, we have what it's called "small claims court". Created to give celerity to certain cases. No recourses, court will give a veredict under 30 days period. Plus, there's a clause called "obligation to do", and once signed by the hired company/firm/shop, you can't run away.
Having a contract is one thing, enforcing it is another. And sometimes people with a good reputation go bad.
Wisdom would include avoiding all luthiers who don't have a well established build history. So, how do up-and-coming artists get their start? The majority are not shady. It isn't fair that all be judged by bad apples such as Darrin Huff.
You asked about Darrin Huff -- he was in the above category. He'd built a custom EB3 style bass for Mike Watt, a few other customs, but only a half-dozen of his unique designs. That design appealed to me, so I conversed with him via email, also by phone a couple of times. I also reached out to other customers who gave glowing reviews of Darrin and his instruments. Despite this due diligence I knew I was taking a chance, but felt that there was no more I could do.
The full story is here, but it's 252 pages long. To sum up: around 20 of us are still waiting for basses that were ordered as long as 20 years ago (20th anniversary of my order will be this April).
USA does too. I live on the east coast of the USA, Darrin Huff lives on the west coast. Would not have been worth my while to take him on out there. Besides, even if his customers did take him on and win -- the very best case scenario -- we would not have been made whole (repaid in full): he would have had to liquidate his meager assets and we would only have received a small fraction of what we'd given him up front. I don't see how that would be different anywhere else.
We have small claims courts, they're usually at the state level or lower and it becomes difficult and costly to take someone to court that is on the other side of the country or even a few states away. So, you can win a decision, but collecting on it is a different thing. Court decisions are usually enacted by the Sheriff which is often an elected position. The Sheriff probably isn't going to go out of their way to assist a non-voting out of stater collect against a potential vote. (These are generalities and will vary from location to location, but unless you're local to the luthier, it's probably going to cost you more in legal fees and your time to collect than to just let your 50% deposit go.)
The bottom line is to NEVER pay in full up front. I restored cars for a living and I charged an upfront deposit of the cost of materials to start the build. I then got payments as the build progressed, with final payment upon delivery. Since the builds could take up to 2 years to finish, this covered materials and gave me a paycheck as it progressed. Final payment would be upon delivery. Anytime anyone in any business, asks for full payment upfront, it's a red flag and time to run.
