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Wood Matters Club!!!

Hey, I respect your right to differ with Dan's opinion BUT, no need for personal insults (i.e. guy who has put together basses for a few years, or whatever you said..). Insults don't further the rich conversation of this thread. Beneath you I would hope. :rolleyes:

Either way, I love the dialogue almost as much as I love both my basses: Spector Spalted Maple USA NS-2J (over $2100) and my Atkinson P-bass ($500 used). Whatever the woods of each, lately I've been sporting wood at the rich "old school" tone of the Atkinson P bass. :D

Marc

Bottom line, is he's incorrect in his testing methods which led to incorrect conclusions and lacks the training and experience to realize it. The sad part is that when informed of those errors by those with the training and experience, he resorted to pettiness and snide remarks.
 
You're even more emotional about this than mongo2. Weird.

Seriously Dan, the only strong emotion I feel right now is a deep sadness that one of my fellow bass players and a fine luthier continues to perpetuate opinions cloaked as facts and when given the opportunity to take a step back and validate those opinions he instead digs a deeper hole.
I really do mean that seriously and with all due respect to you as a fellow bass player, luthier and person.

I have built a number of basses also, and my experience has been very different than yours with wood making a significant impact on overall tone (look at my bass building trials and tribulations in one of my posts on this thread). I spent well over $5000 in parts (not including my labor) and took two years to build what I felt was the perfect bass. I went into the build thinking wood had very little impact on the tone of a non acoustic instrument. I was dead wrong. I found out first hand and with an open wallet and open mind just how much wood can impact tone. Of course I'm refering to all the wood - not just the body, and all the tone - not just the tone in a mix. But that's what this tread was supposed to be about - Wood Matters. No qualifiers, no absolutes, no limitations - just Wood Matters.
 
Dan, why are you even bothering? More than anything you're coming off as a stubborn and pompous jerk who thinks his opinion is 100% correct and that we're all wrong for hearing the differences between woods.

Pot calling the kettle black.

All I did was conduct some simple wood tone tests. The results didn't jive with what you guys believed. As a result, I've been impugned, attacked, and insulted by the condescending tonewood faithful.

All the while, I've presented one simple argument: That wood tone is not as significant as some make it out to be, and that other factors are far more important (such as fingers, pickups, and strings). My goal is to enlighten other bassists on the realities of what makes "tone", to save people time, money, and frustration.

And somehow, you guys have made this into a flame war. :(
 
As a botanist I can say with complete confidence that 2 species of wood will have different properties that affect their acoustics and make them sound different - the abundance of schlereids and the presence/absence of trachieds and vessels in hard and soft woods should be enough to show that different woods give different sounds. These structures affect the vibration and resonance that occur through the wood, giving each species its own voice.

As a botanist you should recognize that you've completely mis-stated the hypothesis under test and built your own straw man in its place.

Human, aren't we?
 
Pot calling the kettle black.

Guilty and a means, see below. And thanks for ignoring the rest of my post ;)

All I did was conduct some simple wood tone tests. The results didn't jive with what you guys believed. As a result, I've been impugned, attacked, and insulted by the condescending tonewood faithful.

Your first test was a trick and made invalid since you flat out lied and said that there were 2 different woods in each sample. Even then a lot of people were right despite what the poll said: More than xteen percent said there was a difference between the first pair (it's irrelevant if they guessed the right species, they could still hear the difference) and almost everyone said the second group sounded extremely similar and they were right: they were the same wood. It's hard not to be "faithful" when many people can hear differences between woods and when there are numbers (that for the fourth time you asked to see) that back it up. Again, see the part of my last post.

All the while, I've presented one simple argument: That wood tone is not as significant as some make it out to be, and that other factors are far more important (such as fingers, pickups, and strings). My goal is to enlighten other bassists on the realities of what makes "tone", to save people time, money, and frustration.

You still seem to ignore that there are people who can hear the difference. Again, not being able to identify species X as alder and species Y as ash, maple, mahogany, walnut, or Madagascarian plywood is irrelevant if you can hear that they sound different. Just being able to hear the differences is how you learn the differences between woods.

Besides, if wood tone doesn't matter then why do you offer to assemble basses made of different body woods?

And somehow, you guys have made this into a flame war. :(

That you ignited, fueled, and fanned by sticking around and biting your thumb in this thread. I think Gene Simmons is a ******nozzle conman but I keep out of the "We Love Gene Simmons" thread. I see there's a "Tone Wood Doesn't Matter" club and you can be damned sure I won't post in there, either. Hence my last sentence: Please just stay out if all you're going to do is stir the pot.

As a botanist you should recognize that you've completely mis-stated the hypothesis under test and built your own straw man in its place.

Human, aren't we?

How is stating facts setting up a straw man? The original hypothesis was that you can't hear the difference between 2 different woods. I said I could hear the difference and later (as in after his second test) gave an explanation as to why different woods sound different. I even posted an article in this thread showing that there were formulas and measurable, significant differences between woods that give them their voice. Then Dan pops into this thread and said that we weren't actually hearing different timbres because needed science to prove there was a difference means there isn't a "real" one (despite constantly saying he wanted numbers) and that it was irrelevant in a mix. :eyebrow:
 
How is stating facts setting up a straw man? The original hypothesis was that you can't hear the difference between 2 different woods.

Let's go back to Dan's very first post in his very first sound clip test thread:

"My position is that wood indeed DOES matter. However, I believe it matters very little. Other factors contribute to tone much more than wood choice (like pickups, strings, neck construction, the player, etc)."

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f8/can-you-tell-difference-ash-vs-alder-738084/

It's been consistent throughout. It's also been consistently mis-stated by tonewooders because it's a lot easier to argue against a caricature of his position. See your own argument for an example.
 
Right, he doesn't believe it matters that much. We do and he's calling us wrong because of that. We try showing him why it matters and he says we're just making excuses and overstating its importance, again calling us wrong. This whole thing wouldn't have happened if he'd had a "whatever" attitude and let it go.
 
Right, he doesn't believe it matters that much. We do and he's calling us wrong because of that. We try showing him why it matters and he says we're just making excuses and overstating its importance, again calling us wrong. This whole thing wouldn't have happened if he'd had a "whatever" attitude and let it go.

How come you guys don't have the "whatever" attitude? If you read my threads, you'll see it was you guys who showed up to nitpick and claim the tests were "pointless" and "flawed", etc. All I've done is defend my position from your often silly attacks. Such as mongo2 declaring that my latest test was flawed because the Scrap Lumber Bass had a higher mass bridge. :rollno:
 
I'm in. Wood matters, without a doubt. I've been playing for about 25 years. My experiences dictate that the more dense the wood, the richer the sound. My first bass was a feather-light Kramer Aerostar. It sounded terrible and played even worse. It was a good bass to start with, though. After that, I bought an '81 Precision Special. That was like going from the poor house to the penthouse. I currently have an '84 Precision Elite II, amongst other basses. On my home scale, it weighs 12 lbs. I'm trying to hunt more down. I want to collect them. It is easily the best sounding bass I have ever owned - deep, full, and incredibly rich. Anyone who owns one (or more) will probably tell you the exact same thing. I had to set it up, though. I bought it online from an Atlanta gospel music store about 10 years ago. I don't EVER see me letting her go.

Dan does have somewhat of a point about the pickups, and of course different strings will provide differing tones based upon the wrap, gauges, etc. Let's put this into another perspective. Which car is going outperform the other: a '69 Camaro or an '83 Escort? Sure, you can probably beef up that Escort. But, there's only so much you can do. Raw materials DO matter. But, yes, some of the advantages can be offset (active pickups, eq on the bass).
 
How come you guys don't have the "whatever" attitude? If you read my threads, you'll see it was you guys who showed up to nitpick and claim the tests were "pointless" and "flawed", etc. All I've done is defend my position from your often silly attacks. Such as mongo2 declaring that my latest test was flawed because the Scrap Lumber Bass had a higher mass bridge. :rollno:

To be perfectly honest, you invited all into your thread and wanted to hear the differing opinions amungst listeners.

This thread however, you wernt invited to....
 
How come you guys don't have the "whatever" attitude?

Because we're not starting trouble in your house. Maybe it's just me, but as I said earlier I don't go into other threads to stir the pot. You guys can have your "wood doesn't matter" club and you won't even see my shadow touch it.

If you read my threads, you'll see it was you guys who showed up to nitpick and claim the tests were "pointless" and "flawed", etc. All I've done is defend my position from your often silly attacks.

I can't speak for everyone but I didn't post anything negative in your test threads; IIRC I only said one thing in your first test thread, "I heard a difference in the first pair, thought the second pair sounded similar, and oh hey, I was right." I'm sorry you've gotten crap for your tests but the response was not to make even more test threads and egg on the "tonewood zealots" like you've been doing in this thread.

You may not think the tonewood matters but for the groups I play in the bass has a lot of presence so to me it does. Many others have similar situations and to us the wood's influence on tone is important. That's why I told you to use a jazz trio example - in situations where the bass has much more presence every aspect that effects tone is relevant, with the tonewood being one of the more important factors.

Such as mongo2 declaring that my latest test was flawed because the Scrap Lumber Bass had a higher mass bridge. :rollno:

Not gonna lie, I lol'd when he said that :D
 
LOL!!

I politely declined to play another rigged game in this very thread, and was attacked by him and his butt-boy CLinton for not playing!!!!

Of course, I won't go near that "Wood doesn't matter" thread. I have no burning desire to prove anything to anyone else, I know what I've experienced.
 
You may not think the tonewood matters but for the groups I play in the bass has a lot of presence so to me it does. Many others have similar situations and to us the wood's influence on tone is important. That's why I told you to use a jazz trio example - in situations where the bass has much more presence every aspect that effects tone is relevant, with the tonewood being one of the more important factors.

Personally, I think that's absolutely key. Musical context counts for a whole lot here. Wood is probably the subtlest of the many factors affecting the sound of an amplified instrument. In some contexts it can still be heard. In many others though, it's swamped by the effect of string types, signal processing, amplification, speakers, etc.

- That Other Dan
 
How come you guys don't have the "whatever" attitude? If you read my threads, you'll see it was you guys who showed up to nitpick and claim the tests were "pointless" and "flawed", etc. All I've done is defend my position from your often silly attacks. Such as mongo2 declaring that my latest test was flawed because the Scrap Lumber Bass had a higher mass bridge. :rollno:

The problem with killing sacred cows is that they are sacred - at least to someone.

I would argue that this is, to a large degree, subjective. When I buy a bass, I don't want to spend good money for a piece of scrap lumber if if it doesn't make a difference. That said, I think it's pretty funny how mad folks get when you suggest that their precious *thing* (whatever that is -a CBS Fender, for example) is really not All That.

Oh - and I liked your test. It was a bit silly, but it was fun.
 
This thread however, you wernt invited to....
_________________
Official Wood Matters Club Member #1

While I have some impressive hack-fu, I'm absolutely sure there was no password required for r/w access to this thread. I'm off to read the guidelines sticky, but I'm pretty certain that what Dan has said here -- while unwelcome by some -- is perfectly on-topic.

- Some Other Dan