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"Educational" not yet. Comical - yes. For any "test" to be considered worth it's weight it should be repeatable by others and therefore validated independently and accepted as legit. That's how science works.
After repeated attempts to get even the most basic of test set up information from Dan (so I can run the test for my self and hopefully see the same results he did) all I have from him is chirping crickets. Nothing, nada, snake oil.
The photos certianly lead one to believe there would be a noticable difference in tone. However, he hasn't (and refuses) to share the key attributes of the test - what wood is each body made from (I can assume alder and pine, but he wont even confirm that - it's just scrap lumber), what is the density and weight of each wood, what is the moisture content of each wood, how do the grain structures compare, were all electronics and settings exactly identical (i.e. electronics used in one bass then removed and used in the other) or were they same spec electronics used side by side, what playing methods were used (location of strum, degree of dig in, etc.), what settings did he use on the preamp, did he change settings to see if that highlighted any differences, why did he use similar necks made of similar wood if he's trying to validate that wood types have little to no impact on tone, what was the logic in mounting pickups with tape vs just screwing them to the board like he did with the neck and the bridge, what was the logic in using different style bridges on each bass, were the strings identical (i.e. swapped from bass to bass for the test) or just similar spec., did he notice any difference between the two basses that might not be audible on $30 2" radio shack computer speakers vs a bass rig, etc.
As you can see, the test he did is wrong on so many levels it's just comical that anyone could consider it educational on the tonewood topic. However, it is very educational on the topic of how easy it can be to sway the masses with contrary or revolutionary opinions hiding behind pseudo science.
In reality he may be on to something but he'll never get credit in my book for solving anything as long as he clings to "tests" without controls, back up data, or independent validation.
Educational, not beyond 4th grade science fair levels. I challenge him to submit his "test" and conclusions to any University science department - when they get done ripping it to shreads we can all go back to really trying to validate the tonewood question vs selling snake oil.
That's a very well thought out analyzation of Dan's process, but sorry man, you're wasting your time posting all that. Others have already done so, and Dan refuses to acknowledge any of the credible problems with his "experiments". If it's a point he can't refute, he simply doesn't respond, changes the criteria of his theories, or only responds strongly to one point in a post leaving the others out. I've brought up other legit points about his assumptions and beliefs (see posts 93 and 160), and got absolutely no response to those either. We should all probably just get back to the point of this thread's original purpose as others have recently stated, and leave Dan to his own devices.
Ok gang, here's something to think about:
Had the test results gone the other way, and people had easily identified tonal differences in the woods, would you still be as critical of the tests?
Had the test results gone the other way, and people had easily identified tonal differences in the woods, would you still be as critical of the tests?
Thats all true. He didnt answer my question either about other luthiers who have several lifetimes of experience without defaulting to an all too easy conspiracy theory that they are deceiving the masses as a marketing ploy. THIN!!
I raised this question as a side note to the discussion because (I would think) anyone who is truly serious about proving a theory wrong would also be interested in determining what led so many leaders of the field (who believe the opposite) down the wrong path. Scientists find methodological fault in the prevailing ideas to show why those ideas are (or could be) wrong. I was interested in specific reasons he would have as to why so many experienced builders independantly feel this way.
The answer that it is a lying ploy by conspirators to make money and prop up a knowingly false cult of tonewood propagandists is not even close to a legitimate and acceptable analysis. Dan himself is out to sell cheap basses and it could be just as ridiculous to say that he needs to propogate the " wood dosent matter" idea as his own marketing ploy. But I believe he really does think this way and he should give the same credit to other luthiers .
Logistical?
Folks that are good at thinking about the flow of the goods and services between the point of origin and the point of consumption?
Well, here's my anecdotal take on the whole thing.
Yesterday, I was helping my kid build a science project out of pine. It's basically a half of a wooden box, which will eventually house a conveyor belt system (long story).
I was carrying it into the garage to let the glue dry overnight, and I said something to my wife over my shoulder. That little box resonated in my hands, just this beautiful vibrating singing ring. It was amazing. Whatever you said into it would produce a warm corresponding tone. And that was just cheap lumber from the Home Depot.
Just my 2 cents, but Ive never gotten that kind of complementary reaction from, say, a coffee-can or a Tupperware container. Wood speaks.
Sorry if the post seems off topic or esoteric, but stringed instruments are made primarily of wood for a reason.
Yesterday, I was helping my kid build a science project out of pine. It's basically a half of a wooden box, which will eventually house a conveyor belt system (long story).
I was carrying it into the garage to let the glue dry overnight, and I said something to my wife over my shoulder. That little box resonated in my hands, just this beautiful vibrating singing ring. It was amazing. Whatever you said into it would produce a warm corresponding tone. And that was just cheap lumber from the Home Depot.
Just my 2 cents, but Ive never gotten that kind of complementary reaction from, say, a coffee-can or a Tupperware container. Wood speaks.
Sorry if the post seems off topic or esoteric, but stringed instruments are made primarily of wood for a reason.
#29 nukes da bass
Sure im giving out numbers! I didnt exactly start this thread to continue the skull smashing that made Dans thread such classy reading.... hint hint
Sure im giving out numbers! I didnt exactly start this thread to continue the skull smashing that made Dans thread such classy reading.... hint hint
Here's something for YOU to think about, Dan....
Since you started out from POST #1 lying about the info you were presenting, should you be questioning anyone else's integrity right now?
I'd like to draw everyone's attention to JimiLL's comment in my thread "Help Me Design My Next Test":
I don't even know where to begin. This comment is the final crescendo of insults and attacks from you guys. Yet supposedly, I am the troll, insecure jerk, etc.
Furthermore, my new thread is the perfect place for you guys to voice your suggestions on how to make my next test more to your liking. To better fit your standards of what could be considered a "useful" test. But the first comment from the "Wood Matters" crew is to tell me to die??
We should have a test where:
A. You walk out the back door of your house, letting the storm door slam, and
B. You walk off a cliff and see if we can hear the "thud"
I don't even know where to begin. This comment is the final crescendo of insults and attacks from you guys. Yet supposedly, I am the troll, insecure jerk, etc.
Furthermore, my new thread is the perfect place for you guys to voice your suggestions on how to make my next test more to your liking. To better fit your standards of what could be considered a "useful" test. But the first comment from the "Wood Matters" crew is to tell me to die??
I'd like to draw everyone's attention to JimiLL's comment in my thread "Help Me Design My Next Test":
I don't even know where to begin. This comment is the final crescendo of insults and attacks from you guys. Yet supposedly, I am the troll, insecure jerk, etc.
Furthermore, my new thread is the perfect place for you guys to voice your suggestions on how to make my next test more to your liking. To better fit your standards of what could be considered a "useful" test. But the first comment from the "Wood Matters" crew is to tell me to die??
It would've been one thing if it was someone else, but for the founder of the club to do it?
I withdrew my membership because of that, too...
- Feb 16, 2008
- 21,240
- 23,638
- Disclosures
- John K Custom Basses
i just love how you lump everyone that disagrees with you into "they", and by doing so, IMO, you're making another one of you blanket statements. personally, i think it was said in jest, like 'go jump in a lake', but that's just MY opinion.
I don't even know where to begin. This comment is the final crescendo of insults and attacks from you guys. Yet supposedly, I am the troll, insecure jerk, etc.
"you guys?".
Furthermore, my new thread is the perfect place for you guys to voice your suggestions on how to make my next test more to your liking. To better fit your standards of what could be considered a "useful" test. But the first comment from the "Wood Matters" crew is to tell me to die??
you're entitled to your opinion as others are to their's. and i'm certainly not 'emotional' about my opinion as to the effect of tonewood on any instrument. passionate and meticulous about every aspect of building basses? yes, but definitely not emotional.
Sorry John, "Go jump in a lake" is one thing. "Jump off a cliff until we hear a thud" is another.
Your insistence on defending such an offensive comment, and any further defense from others in this thread, simply affirms my statements that "lump" you guys together.
Your insistence on defending such an offensive comment, and any further defense from others in this thread, simply affirms my statements that "lump" you guys together.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Jimi: Leave well enough and the other group alone, I don't know why you decided to try starting more **** but it's bad form.
Dan: Stop fanning the flamewar, using a few bad apples as a representative of us as a whole, and stop taking everything so personally.
Again, this whole thing would have been prevented if Dan had just stayed out of this thread, stopped egging us on, and just accepted that to us an instrument's wood does significantly matter.
This is seriously bordering pre-school dirt throwing. While there has been some good debate it's being marred by all the immature posts like the ones above. Grow up.
Jimi: Leave well enough and the other group alone, I don't know why you decided to try starting more **** but it's bad form.
Dan: Stop fanning the flamewar, using a few bad apples as a representative of us as a whole, and stop taking everything so personally.
Again, this whole thing would have been prevented if Dan had just stayed out of this thread, stopped egging us on, and just accepted that to us an instrument's wood does significantly matter.
This is seriously bordering pre-school dirt throwing. While there has been some good debate it's being marred by all the immature posts like the ones above. Grow up.
Thank you both for talking some kind of sense. I, for one, think that the fact that these clubs were even created was only to "outdo" the other! People have had these beliefs for YEARS possibly even DECADES and all of a sudden it becomes necessary to make a thread in support of one to show the world your resolve? No. Just no. This has to be the biggest, stupidest, most inane argument I've ever seen on TB! Believe what you believe and don't worry what everyone else says. In this case, at least, things would be much less ridiculous. This whole thing is like a squabble between children.
/getoffamylawn
the sad thing is that everyone seems to ignore the part where he mentions alembic and how they try to create a completely blank slate for their electronics, and he doesn't bash them at all. he just says that's just a different way to make instruments. END OF STORY! grow up
