Worship Bass Pedalboards

[erayser]

I'm really starting to be a fan of the P16 personal monitors again. I have a Rollls mix-mate in my Personal Wireless rack, so I used the mixbus person mix in one channel... that most churches uses, and the P16 Powerplay Stereo output into a 2nd channel... and compared the 2. The P16 Powerplay sounded a lot better, since I can personally EQ each channel, and panning instruments/singers where I want them to be in my IEM's. This enhanced my personal mix. It's pretty fun playing when it sounds good in my ears. Since nobody uses the Ultranet Personal mix port at my home church... I'm very tempted to buy a P16-HQ to use at home, and at my home church. I'll just use the home church mixbus outputs for bass, synth, and kick drum for my bassboard.

 

[SemiDriven]

Great Worship AM today (and Thursday PM!).

Glorious Day (D)
All About You (A)
In the Name (C)

The message was one of the best I've heard regarding dating (singles & married couples).

 

[Zbysek]

For JHS Double Dragon users: how is tracking on that thing?

 

[projectapollo]

For JHS Double Dragon users: how is tracking on that thing?

Better than the Aguilar Octamizer, about the same as MXR BOD, not as good as Broughton Subsonic. It's a pretty handy device that can fill a couple of roles.

 

[TaylorJ]

Better than the Aguilar Octamizer, about the same as MXR BOD, not as good as Broughton Subsonic. It's a pretty handy device that can fill a couple of roles.

Thinking about that MXR BOD pedal. Think I want a clean octave sound without the synth thing. Seems like that one keeps coming up in talks of a clean octave.

 

[wolffire99]

Thinking about that MXR BOD pedal. Think I want a clean octave sound without the synth thing. Seems like that one keeps coming up in talks of a clean octave.

HX One would be a great clean octave option and do other stuff. Love the simple pitch block for that and it tracks amazing.

 

[IanA]

Can I ask some questions to folk who use or have used the Tonehammer DI.
I am a long term user of it and have mostly used it with the AGS on and gain at around 9 o clock.
I have recently been getting frustrated with how much low end the AGS cuts out and have reverted back to using it without AGS last weekend.
In short I was amazed at how much fuller the sound was, even with the HPF dialled in from the main desk the bass had a real authority to it in the house, even our worship leader stopped playing at one point and walked out front amazed at how much bigger the sound was.

So I guess my questions are

1, Has anyone else experienced the same thing
2, Do Bethel and other users take a parallel unaffected signal to blend into the affected signal to bring the depth back?

I know AGS gets a lot of love, but even just as a clean preamp the Tonehammer is an absolutely outstanding box with great eq and huge headroom.
Incidentally the Microsynth sounds even more awesome without the AGS!!

 

[Zbysek]

1, Has anyone else experienced the same thing
2, Do Bethel and other users take a parallel unaffected signal to blend into the affected signal to bring the depth back?

1.
Yes, AGS cuts some lows. However, the slope is not steep and lows can be brought back with the Bass control. The only ocassion when it becomes an issue is with my Musicman Sterling bass. The 3-band onboard preamp features HPF...
2.
I don't.

Edit: I might add that the pedal with AGS on sounds mid-forward, especially with higher gain settings. Cutting mids helps with that...

 

[Killens84]

Can I ask some questions to folk who use or have used the Tonehammer DI.
I am a long term user of it and have mostly used it with the AGS on and gain at around 9 o clock.
I have recently been getting frustrated with how much low end the AGS cuts out and have reverted back to using it without AGS last weekend.
In short I was amazed at how much fuller the sound was, even with the HPF dialled in from the main desk the bass had a real authority to it in the house, even our worship leader stopped playing at one point and walked out front amazed at how much bigger the sound was.

So I guess my questions are

1, Has anyone else experienced the same thing
2, Do Bethel and other users take a parallel unaffected signal to blend into the affected signal to bring the depth back?

I know AGS gets a lot of love, but even just as a clean preamp the Tonehammer is an absolutely outstanding box with great eq and huge headroom.
Incidentally the Microsynth sounds even more awesome without the AGS!!

I’ve found that I like the AGS thing with my P bass or if I’m running only the neck pickup on my Jazz bass. I do not like it with my Stingray or if I’m using both pickups on my jazz bass. Similar reasons you described above.

 

[IanA]

1.
Yes, AGS cuts some lows. However, the slope is not steep and lows can be brought back with the Bass control. The only ocassion when it becomes an issue is with my Musicman Sterling bass. The 3-band onboard preamp features HPF...
2.
I don't.

Edit: I might add that the pedal with AGS on sounds mid-forward, especially with higher gain settings. Cutting mids helps with that...

I think from memory the roll off does start quite high though, like 100hz or so. Jason posted some charts in one of the Tonehammer threads a number of years back.

 

[Zbysek]

I think from memory the roll off does start quite high though, like 100hz or so. Jason posted some charts in one of the Tonehammer threads a number of years back.

Even though the roll off starts as high as 200Hz, it is still only -1.5 db at 50Hz. IMO, it can be easily compensated with the Bass control...or at the mixer..

Se the post No. 1825 in the following thread:

Post in thread 'Aguilar - Official 'Tone Hammer 500' 3.8lbs 500w Megathread!'

Nov 9, 2012

Okay, here are some plots of the drive control. I scoped this with as little overdrive as possible, by adjusting the gain and input volume on the head, then I normalized the results so that you can compare the two.

Each graph has the white line (which is drive completely off) and the Green line which is the drive at either 9 o'clock, 12 o'clock, 3 o'clock, or full on. The EQ knobs were at NOON on all these graphs...never touched them. Yes, I could have tweaked them to get the graph more flat if I wanted, but that kind of defeats the point. You can see on the first image below that the...

• Eublet

• 

 

[NickyBass]

Just a quick Dual Lock tip.
I put two strips horizontally all the way across each row of the board. Then all my pedals have two strips vertically.
So, there are 4 point of contact...it holds very well, but it's easy enough to remove each pedal with a little pry tool. It's also nice because I never have to change the location of the Dual Lock.

 

[IanA]

Even though the roll off starts as high as 200Hz, it is still only -1.5 db at 50Hz. IMO, it can be easily compensated with the Bass control...or at the mixer..

Se the post No. 1825 in the following thread:

Post in thread 'Aguilar - Official 'Tone Hammer 500' 3.8lbs 500w Megathread!'

Nov 9, 2012

Okay, here are some plots of the drive control. I scoped this with as little overdrive as possible, by adjusting the gain and input volume on the head, then I normalized the results so that you can compare the two.

Each graph has the white line (which is drive completely off) and the Green line which is the drive at either 9 o'clock, 12 o'clock, 3 o'clock, or full on. The EQ knobs were at NOON on all these graphs...never touched them. Yes, I could have tweaked them to get the graph more flat if I wanted, but that kind of defeats the point. You can see on the first image below that the...

• Eublet

• 

That is a good call, maybe a 3-6db boost @ 40hz ish from the mixer might work

 

[Zbysek]

That is a good call, maybe a 3-6db boost @ 40hz ish from the mixer might work

When I am switching between the AGS on and the pedal bypassed (using the "Engage" footswitch) I achieve similar amount of lows by setting the Bass control at 1pm or slightly above...

 

[projectapollo]

Can I ask some questions to folk who use or have used the Tonehammer DI.
I am a long term user of it and have mostly used it with the AGS on and gain at around 9 o clock.
I have recently been getting frustrated with how much low end the AGS cuts out and have reverted back to using it without AGS last weekend.
In short I was amazed at how much fuller the sound was, even with the HPF dialled in from the main desk the bass had a real authority to it in the house, even our worship leader stopped playing at one point and walked out front amazed at how much bigger the sound was.

So I guess my questions are

1, Has anyone else experienced the same thing
2, Do Bethel and other users take a parallel unaffected signal to blend into the affected signal to bring the depth back?

I know AGS gets a lot of love, but even just as a clean preamp the Tonehammer is an absolutely outstanding box with great eq and huge headroom.
Incidentally the Microsynth sounds even more awesome without the AGS!!

Interesting observations. Here are some random TH experiences and thoughts, based on a passive bass, that may or may not apply.

1. Aguilar says as AGS gain is increased, bass is "tightened" whatever that means. Overall, I look at the TH/AGS as a simple amp-in-a-box with that characteristic roll off of some highs and deep lows in exchange for drive/cut. I can totally see the appeal in retaining deep lows, however, depending on your songs and how full your band mix gets. The more dense the band mix, the more valuable the AGS for slotting in note intelligibility. In a more sparse band mix, the deep lows are very appealing.

2. One thing to check is dialing back the mids level even more with AGS gain dialed up. It's possible you are hearing that big mid-bump volume and compensating by turning down the output gain, thus less bottom. Cut the mids level more, the pedal volume drops, increase the out put gain to compensate and the perceived low end should increase?

3. I've noticed that the bass control with AGS on works differently than with it off. If you have the mid frequency set low, I think it can overlap with the bass control and the mid level cut negates the effect of the bass control. If you move the mid frequency up at bit (while using mid level cut), the bass control starts to work more normally and you can add in some more deep bass.

4. I totally agree that the TH w/o AGS is a very nice preamp.

I'm just guessing. You are a very experienced worship bassist and TH user so you understand your situation much better, of course.

 

[Zbysek]

2. One thing to check is dialing back the mids level even more with AGS gain dialed up. It's possible you are hearing that big mid-bump volume and compensating by turning down the output gain, thus less bottom. Cut the mids level more, the pedal volume drops, increase the out put gain to compensate and the perceived low end should increase?

This

 

[IanA]

Interesting observations. Here are some random TH experiences and thoughts, based on a passive bass, that may or may not apply.

1. Aguilar says as AGS gain is increased, bass is "tightened" whatever that means. Overall, I look at the TH/AGS as a simple amp-in-a-box with that characteristic roll off of some highs and deep lows in exchange for drive/cut. I can totally see the appeal in retaining deep lows, however, depending on your songs and how full your band mix gets. The more dense the band mix, the more valuable the AGS for slotting in note intelligibility. In a more sparse band mix, the deep lows are very appealing.

2. One thing to check is dialing back the mids level even more with AGS gain dialed up. It's possible you are hearing that big mid-bump volume and compensating by turning down the output gain, thus less bottom. Cut the mids level more, the pedal volume drops, increase the out put gain to compensate and the perceived low end should increase?

3. I've noticed that the bass control with AGS on works differently than with it off. If you have the mid frequency set low, I think it can overlap with the bass control and the mid level cut negates the effect of the bass control. If you move the mid frequency up at bit (while using mid level cut), the bass control starts to work more normally and you can add in some more deep bass.

4. I totally agree that the TH w/o AGS is a very nice preamp.

I'm just guessing. You are a very experienced worship bassist and TH user so you understand your situation much better, of course.

Thank you for your lengthy reply.

I can see where you are coming from with the mids, the pedals controls are indeed very interactive with AGS engaged. There is a very strong relationship between gain and mids, and that mid push can be quite uncomfortable.
I have added a photo of my typical AGS settings below, bass is a Precision. I am guessing that the cut is around 430hz.
I am a long time user of the pedal, probably about a decade but my usage has changed somewhat. I no longer play at larger churches or at conferences, and as such the mix is less dense.

The fuller range sound is a lot more supportive which I think fits better for where I am currently.
I was hoping to add some depth to the AGS tone so that I can retain the treble roll off that is so useful through in ears.
I will try cutting more mids but am wary of loosing Too much of that P bass fatness…
Thanks once again
Ian

 

[wolffire99]

Can I ask some questions to folk who use or have used the Tonehammer DI.
I am a long term user of it and have mostly used it with the AGS on and gain at around 9 o clock.
I have recently been getting frustrated with how much low end the AGS cuts out and have reverted back to using it without AGS last weekend.
In short I was amazed at how much fuller the sound was, even with the HPF dialled in from the main desk the bass had a real authority to it in the house, even our worship leader stopped playing at one point and walked out front amazed at how much bigger the sound was.

So I guess my questions are

1, Has anyone else experienced the same thing
2, Do Bethel and other users take a parallel unaffected signal to blend into the affected signal to bring the depth back?

I know AGS gets a lot of love, but even just as a clean preamp the Tonehammer is an absolutely outstanding box with great eq and huge headroom.
Incidentally the Microsynth sounds even more awesome without the AGS!!

Sub lows can sound good in certain contexts, usually quieter, slower songs, but generally not with drive or faster songs.

 

[Zbysek]

I will try cutting more mids

That…or try cutting at lower frequency (with frequency control set at either 8 or 9 pm)…-so you get rid of the low mids masking your deep lows…and boost the Bass control even more…

 

[AObando2002]

Interesting observations. Here are some random TH experiences and thoughts, based on a passive bass, that may or may not apply.

1. Aguilar says as AGS gain is increased, bass is "tightened" whatever that means. Overall, I look at the TH/AGS as a simple amp-in-a-box with that characteristic roll off of some highs and deep lows in exchange for drive/cut. I can totally see the appeal in retaining deep lows, however, depending on your songs and how full your band mix gets. The more dense the band mix, the more valuable the AGS for slotting in note intelligibility. In a more sparse band mix, the deep lows are very appealing.

2. One thing to check is dialing back the mids level even more with AGS gain dialed up. It's possible you are hearing that big mid-bump volume and compensating by turning down the output gain, thus less bottom. Cut the mids level more, the pedal volume drops, increase the out put gain to compensate and the perceived low end should increase?

3. I've noticed that the bass control with AGS on works differently than with it off. If you have the mid frequency set low, I think it can overlap with the bass control and the mid level cut negates the effect of the bass control. If you move the mid frequency up at bit (while using mid level cut), the bass control starts to work more normally and you can add in some more deep bass.

4. I totally agree that the TH w/o AGS is a very nice preamp.

I'm just guessing. You are a very experienced worship bassist and TH user so you understand your situation much better, of course.

I agree with the majority of this. I also didn't have a great experience with the TH. I tried a few different times and I'll probably end up trying again. I guess it also has to do with how it sits in the mix and what your ultimate goal is. If you want the lowest and deepest thing in your mix to be the bass, the kick drum needs to be more upfront and a bit more "highs" present. I think where this really becomes a problem is when we EQ with heavy lows and then it becomes a bit of a boomy mess in the mix. I tend to prefer the kick be the lowest, then it's best to have some of the bass HPF to cut through better. This is where the TH can shine for some people. However, if I have to cut a lot, if not most of the mids to make it work, then it's counterproductive. At least to me. That's why it doesn't make a ton of sense to me to have the "Bethel" EQ setting in most other scenarios, because the majority of other churches and systems tend to not cut the way Bethel does. It works for them, because of the way their FOH and stream engineers mix. My 02.

I'm about to pick up the Mantle tho! Looks like it's a winner to me.