"You should help him get help" ...

[Joe Nerve]

I don't think there's anything wrong with telling someone their actions seem a little OCD.

I think arguing (I mean discussing) the fine details of people's posts on a bass forum, is OCD .

Why do we do this?

We could be doing productive things.

My wife thinks I'm nuts.

I think she's right.

Sometimes.

 

[guy n. cognito]

I don't think there's anything wrong with telling someone their actions seem a little OCD.

I think arguing (I mean discussing) the fine details of people's posts on a bass forum, is OCD .

Why do we do this?

We could be doing productive things.

My wife thinks I'm nuts.

I think she's right.

Sometimes.

Of course.

You're not a psychologist. You didn't even sleep in a Holiday Inn last night.

Diagnosing a band mate is a mistake, and unnecessary. Deal with his behavior; not try to determine why he does what he does. Leave that to him, his family and his dr.

 

[Joe Nerve]

Of course.

You're not a psychologist. You didn't even sleep in a Holiday Inn last night.

Diagnosing a band mate is a mistake, and unnecessary. Deal with his behavior; not try to determine why he does what he does. Leave that to him, his family and his dr.

I could argue for days on this, but I won't - because I actually think you're right . I'll give ya this one, but I'm not going to make a habit of this kind of thing.

And how do you know I didn't sleep in a holiday inn last night?

 

[two fingers]

And I could have said that better .

I agree 100%.

I would disagree with this completely. Presuming a diagnosis is arrogant, insulting, and more than likely incorrect. Rather, address the problematic action without playing Armchair Psychologist.

My tongue was firmly implanted in my cheek while I was typing that. My only point was to handle it openly and honestly. Why grown people go through life walking on eggshells is beyond me. Nothing happens if nothing gets addressed.

So, and I don't believe I actually have to say this, I would not actually say to someone with a "tick" that they have one. But I also wouldn't allow some sort of problem to delay shows if I think there is a chance that the person with the problem could get help and chooses not to.

I guess that humor was a bit dry.

 

[jive1]

You are connected to that band mate more than you know. My first employer. Told me "Leave your Problems at the Door" ( before you come in) easy to do if one is somewhat normal. If one is sick of either mind/body/spirit, it may be impossible without Help, Understanding, and Love. Probably the hardest to do, is to have an experience with a person you love, in this case "my lay in a Drunken stupor everyday of his life Dad" and watch their misery become yours. But you must keep trying. It made my resolve even stronger not to be lead down a path of destruction.

I can certainly love and understand someone and still have boundaries. One of the boundaries being that you aren't going to mess with the professional relationships that I have with clients and musicians. I'm not going to tell a bride and her family that one of the musicians is dealing with addictions that affected previous gigs, but we're doing our best to make sure he's sober and plays well. Someone hiring a band for big money on a special, once in a lifetime event deserves better than that. I'm not going to waste the time or reputation of the other musicians in the band for someone who couldn't learn the material due to personal problems. The musicians have other opportunities and deserve better than that.
Sometimes being in a band will compound your problems, not help. Having family problems? Spend more time with your wife/husband/kids instead of the band. Having alcohol problems? Playing in a bar band sure isn't going to help. The list goes on and on. I can be a friend without being in a band together. I'll probably be a better friend, because it's going to be harder for me to love and understand if someone is messing with my hustle. You can write off someone as a band member without writing them off as a person.

 

[klokker]

Reading posts in the Band Management forum I come across posts that read "my <insert band member> has < substance abuse; mental illness; anger management; socialization problems; OCD; ADHD> and it's affecting the band, what should I do". Many respond that instead of firing the offender, they should get help for the member. I'm in a band, not a social services agency. If a member can't cut it, for whatever reason, it's time to let him/her go. Sure, I can sympathize, empathize, and even point them toward the help they need, but they are out of the band.

What do others think?

I don't completely disagree, but I think that in a "moral order", the individual people in the band are more important than the performance of the band. Also, calling someone with a mental illness an "offender" is a problem for me. I don't see a person with a mental illness, or anger management issues, or even drug addiction, as any different than a person with a physical illness. They are not "offenders" unless they break the law. How would you handle someone who needed back surgury or couldn't play for a while because of a divorce etc.? As "offenders"?

I do agree that if they can't cut it anymore that it's OK to make a decision to get somebody else. You do say that you can symphize and emphathize which is hopeful.........as long you keep the priorities in the right order and don't play "Mr. Righteous", if you have to make the difficult decision it should work reasonably well.

It's not your responsibility to fix them, or help them. I do think it's your responsibility to treat the situation respectfully.

 

[jive1]

Diagnosing a band mate is a mistake, and unnecessary. Deal with his behavior; not try to determine why he does what he does. Leave that to him, his family and his dr.

Yep.

Diagnostics are best done by those who are trained in reading a constellation of symptoms. Therapy is best led by someone who is trained and experienced in dealing with a particular diagnosis.

 

[RustyAxe]

I'm not talking about the first time someone screws up ... I'm talking about a pattern of poor performance over time. I'm not talking about firing someone without speaking to them about the problem. All that should go without saying. But when nothing changes it's time to let the offender go. A working band is not a clinic, self-help group, or anything other than a band.

 

[bassbully]

I'm not talking about the first time someone screws up ... I'm talking about a pattern of poor performance over time. I'm not talking about firing someone without speaking to them about the problem. All that should go without saying. But when nothing changes it's time to let the offender go. A working band is not a clinic, self-help group, or anything other than a band.

I agree. Only once did a band I was a member of had an issue where we had to talk to a member. It was over a drug issue that was effecting the band. Let's just say the issue was not well received by that person and I left the band pretty quickly.
I have a background in mental health, substance abuse in my work so the old saying "help only comes to those who want it" sometimes fits.

My last band fired me unfairly for no reason other than a member wanted to replace me with the bands old bass player who quit..his buddy. If there were reasons and they were considering me being replaced, this should of been brought up to my face. I might of understood it more.
Sadly a few lame reasons were outlined in the email they sent me. Even thou the reasons were a lame attempt for them to bring their buddy back it upset me since nothing in over a year was ever said.
I feel if you have issues any issues it should be brought to the persons attention. If talking it out and any corrective actions do not work then you have to plan a move with that person. Don't go and backstab somebody like I was. It's hard to accept...trust me.

 

[EatS1stBassist]

I agree. Only once did a band I was a member of had an issue where we had to talk to a member. It was over a drug issue that was effecting the band. Let's just say the issue was not well received by that person and I left the band pretty quickly.
I have a background in mental health, substance abuse in my work so the old saying "help only comes to those who want it" sometimes fits.

My last band fired me unfairly for no reason other than a member wanted to replace me with the bands old bass player who quit..his buddy. If there were reasons and they were considering me being replaced, this should of been brought up to my face. I might of understood it more.
Sadly a few lame reasons were outlined in the email they sent me. Even thou the reasons were a lame attempt for them to bring their buddy back it upset me since nothing in over a year was ever said.
I feel if you have issues any issues it should be brought to the persons attention. If talking it out and any corrective actions do not work then you have to plan a move with that person. Don't go and backstab somebody like I was. It's hard to accept...trust me.

That happened to me as well. Sorry for that. I was fired from a band for closing my eyes while playing.

 

[EatS1stBassist]

I was wearing sunglasses at an outdoor gig.

 

[bassbully]

That happened to me as well. Sorry for that. I was fired from a band for closing my eyes while playing.

LOL... NO Way!

 

[EatS1stBassist]

I totally believe in Loving support of any human. That said, I am not talking about a chance meeting of a stranger needing unsung help. More in the vein of a person you work with. I, at one time, was working for a famous ex-Super Star as his tech and man-Friday. A Great Musician in every way. That Upper 1% in fame and talent and credentials. He had fallen on hard times and he would use my instruments to pursue gigs. I also was his driver. He was a drunk and used cocaine, and I didn't need a license to determine that. Also he was very abusive. You can only rub people the wrong way so many times and then its consequence time. I hired him for a steady gig I had and gave him my pay to have him in the band. It was on my Birthday we parted ways. My oldest Son was laying in the hospital for 8 weeks I was suffering greatly with a 32 year old spinal cord injury, which caused extremely bad pain. My wife lovingly had my instrument set up when I returned from seeing my Son. Saddened and in extreme pain I received a call from this musician, he was demanding the use of My axe and calling me MF. I FIRED THE FAMOUS MUSICIAN FROM ANY FURTHER WORK IN MY BAND!!
It happened earlier in my life taking abuse longer than needed from a former employer. When I was done with taking his childish brutality I told him to close his mouth and not open it til After I was gone. (It was not that nice) he complied for he knew there would be a consequence that would arrive.

 

[bassbully]

I totally believe in Loving support of any human. That said, I am not talking about a chance meeting of a stranger needing unsung help. More in the vein of a person you work with. I, at one time, was working for a famous ex-Super Star as his tech and man-Friday. A Great Musician in every way. That Upper 1% in fame and talent and credentials. He had fallen on hard times and he would use my instruments to pursue gigs. I also was his driver. He was a drunk and used cocaine, and I didn't need a license to determine that. Also he was very abusive. You can only rub people the wrong way so many times and then its consequence time. I hired him for a steady gig I had and gave him my pay to have him in the band. It was on my Birthday we parted ways. My oldest Son was laying in the hospital for 8 weeks I was suffering greatly with a 32 year old spinal cord injury, which caused extremely bad pain. My wife lovingly had my instrument set up when I returned from seeing my Son. Saddened and in extreme pain I received a call from this musician, he was demanding the use of My axe and calling me MF. I FIRED THE FAMOUS MUSICIAN FROM ANY FURTHER WORK IN MY BAND!!
It happened earlier in my life taking abuse longer than needed from a former employer. When I was done with taking his childish brutality I told him to close his mouth and not open it til After I was gone. (It was not that nice) he complied for he knew there would be a consequence that would arrive.

Wow I know you won't tell us who that was but I can understand your fury at him. I'm trying after almost 3 months to forget and forgive about my situation...not there yet. Musicians even sobers one can't be difficult to work with. Frankly , I'm sick of dealing with most of them.

 

[klokker]

A working band is not a clinic, self-help group, or anything other than a band.

A band of brothers if you ask me. Weekend warrior here, so maybe that taints my experience and expectations.

 

[RustyAxe]

A band of brothers if you ask me. Weekend warrior here, so maybe that taints my experience and expectations.

I'm not much more than that, really. But ... using the warrior analogy, what does one do when one member of a military unit is unreliable and can't pull their weight? It's about the mission.

 

[EatS1stBassist]

Wow I know you won't tell us who that was but I can understand your fury at him. I'm trying after almost 3 months to forget and forgive about my situation...not there yet. Musicians even sobers one can't be difficult to work with. Frankly , I'm sick of dealing with most of them.

I can tell you this he was in the upper 1% of the 1%. He has since got a great gig with people on his level.

 

[crucislancer]

I'm not much more than that, really. But ... using the warrior analogy, what does one do when one member of a military unit is unreliable and can't pull their weight? It's about the mission.

This is a good point. My band is only a hobby project, and if any of my band mates had issues that impaired the band they would be talked to, warned, and then ultimately fired if it didn't improve. This isn't because we are heartless, it's just that it's not fair to the rest of the band to go through that and fail because of one person.

I agree that it wouldn't be my place to help that person beyond having a talk with them, and honestly unless that person drove me crazy on a personal level, I would be more than happy to do exactly that. But beyond that, I can't do anything about it. It's up to them to want to change.

 

[klokker]

I'm not much more than that, really. But ... using the warrior analogy, what does one do when one member of a military unit is unreliable and can't pull their weight? It's about the mission.

I can't disagree, but trying to make a point (for some unknown reason). The band I'm in now leans to that cut and dried approach. Show up on time, play your part or people get irritated. I'm sure that if I really was a slacker they would kick me out. I make a mistake and our BL says, "Glad I don't have any extra drumsticks tonight". Yikes.

But still there is some loyalty to each other that would come into play. There certainly doesn't have to be though. All I'm saying is that in IME, that's always been there. It's never been all about the band.

 

[blubass]

I'm not much more than that, really. But ... using the warrior analogy, what does one do when one member of a military unit is unreliable and can't pull their weight? It's about the mission.

They're not directly comparable. In the military, a first offense is usually met with a mandated substance abuse program and counseling. Refusal to meet those requirements usually gets and Article15 which is half pay, and extra duty for 15-30 days, AFTER a reduction in rank so pay is even less. Refusal to meet that is jail time. The commander also can choose to do an other than honorable, or dishonorable discharge which essentially ruins your life as far as many future jobs are concerned.

Make no mistake, the military puts a lot of money into people, and intends to see a return. They'll certainly work with people through substance abuse, and can forgo any punishment at the commanders discretion depending on the individual and circumstances. A person can also self-refer themselves and be granted amnesty in a 1-time case.

Those that have other issues aren't fired, they're simply moved to other jobs or missions not directly combat related. There's lots of soldiers in the Army that had non-deployable profiles with mental health issues. Some are medically discharged, some can't reenlist, others can.