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Zoom B3 As Preamp

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#401
I use an Ampeg PF350 as my main amp, into 2x Ampeg 210av's. This rig kills on its own, but has now been transformed into a Super Mini Rig by the addition of the MS-60B! I find that I really like having a way to monitor input clipping, so I am using my main amp input, from the 60B to achieve this. I got some good TB advice from our resident Ampeg Guru on a flat setting for the 350. I checked this against the FX In, to get as close to flat as my ears would allow. So essentially, I have a Power Amp with tone control if needed. I'm finding that Unity Gain is being achieved at a very low level on the 60B. For instance, I have a patch that is Gate>160Comp>SVT, and my levels on the SVT are Gain@44, and Level@20. I set these before adding the Gate and the Comp, and adjusted the levels on these 2 to keep my over all level consistent. The patch sounds great, but I'm wondering if I'm configuring things wrong, as my levels seem low compared to other users. Thoughts?

J!
 
#403
Johno Dunn said:
I use an Ampeg PF350 as my main amp, into 2x Ampeg 210av's. This rig kills on its own, but has now been transformed into a Super Mini Rig by the addition of the MS-60B! I find that I really like having a way to monitor input clipping, so I am using my main amp input, from the 60B to achieve this. I got some good TB advice from our resident Ampeg Guru on a flat setting for the 350. I checked this against the FX In, to get as close to flat as my ears would allow. So essentially, I have a Power Amp with tone control if needed. I'm finding that Unity Gain is being achieved at a very low level on the 60B. For instance, I have a patch that is Gate>160Comp>SVT, and my levels on the SVT are Gain@44, and Level@20. I set these before adding the Gate and the Comp, and adjusted the levels on these 2 to keep my over all level consistent. The patch sounds great, but I'm wondering if I'm configuring things wrong, as my levels seem low compared to other users. Thoughts?

J!
Click to expand...

The PF350 and SVT210AVs are a great rig!

Although my choice would be to avoid the front input and preamp of the PF350 altogether by plugging in to the EFFECT RETURN jack on the rear, your connection choice should produce similar results if you are diligent with the PF350's front knobs.

Before getting too caught up in what is "unity", I would like to clarify that the way the MS-60B (or B3) is utilized has great impact on adherence to unity. Let me explain.

When used in front of a device that expects "instrument level" input, it may be in best interest to ensure what comes out of the MS-60B (or B3) is roughly instrument level. If the next device is expecting "line level", the same applies.

Additionally, one should be mindful of the DSP chain inside the MS-60B (or B3), starting with its INPUT jack that expects instrument level. As the internal effects start to pile up, it may be in best interest to ensure that individual effect levels remain in check as to not overload the next effect, and ultimately, the OUTPUT. Although there is some very forgiving internal headroom in both the B3 and MS-60B, clipping can occur if one is totally careless.

In the case of the way you are connecting to the PF350, a clipping condition can exist within the MS-60B (or B3) despite the amp's PEAK LED not flashing, so use of the PF350's front panel input to monitor clipping is perhaps a moot point.

As long as things work and sound satisfactory to you, there should be nothing wrong with your levels differing from those of other users and I would focus more on having fun playing bass :-)

Cheers!
 
#410
CharlieC said:
Although my choice would be to avoid the front input and preamp of the PF350 altogether by plugging in to the EFFECT RETURN jack on the rear, your connection choice should produce similar results if you are diligent with the PF350's front knobs.
Click to expand...

I use a PF-500 and two PF-115HE's. I'm trying to figure out a way that I would be able to utilize the MS-60B's tuner and also use it as a preamp. I read your post earlier in this treat about A/B'ing your amp and the zoom unit by using the tuner out and effect return and then rotating the fx mix knob on the front of the amp. I'm assuming that if this works for A/B'ing the two, it would also work as your typical wiring for live performance? If FOH were to take a DI from my PF-500 with things wired up this way would they get the signal of the zoom unit as a preamp? Or would it be bypassed and be a straight dry bass signal since the PF-500's preamp would be bypassed? Also...why would one want to use the effect return jack and not one of the power amp or preamp jacks...unless the PF-350 just doesn't have those jacks and you would sugguest using different jacks on a PF-500? Wow....that was confusing to write, hopefully it isn't as confusing to read. Let me know if I need to 'splain myself a bit better!
 
#411
TwoRivers said:
I use a PF-500 and two PF-115HE's. I'm trying to figure out a way that I would be able to utilize the MS-60B's tuner and also use it as a preamp. I read your post earlier in this treat about A/B'ing your amp and the zoom unit by using the tuner out and effect return and then rotating the fx mix knob on the front of the amp. I'm assuming that if this works for A/B'ing the two, it would also work as your typical wiring for live performance? If FOH were to take a DI from my PF-500 with things wired up this way would they get the signal of the zoom unit as a preamp? Or would it be bypassed and be a straight dry bass signal since the PF-500's preamp would be bypassed? Also...why would one want to use the effect return jack and not one of the power amp or preamp jacks...unless the PF-350 just doesn't have those jacks and you would sugguest using different jacks on a PF-500? Wow....that was confusing to write, hopefully it isn't as confusing to read. Let me know if I need to 'splain myself a bit better!
Click to expand...

Good questions!

The PF350 does not have a POWER AMP IN, but it does have an EFFECT RETURN, and is why I suggested that over the preferred POWER AMP IN.

If I had the excellent equipment you listed, I would wire the bass to MS-60B's INPUT, then wire L/OUTPUT to PF500's POWER AMP IN. The MS-60B would handle all effects and preamp duties, plus act as a tuner when necessary.

My A/B strategy would definitely work in a "live" setting with the PF500, with any blend of A/B via the FX MIX knob, and the PF500's XLR will output exactly the mix you set.

:bassist:
 
#412
CharlieC said:
Good questions!

The PF350 does not have a POWER AMP IN, but it does have an EFFECT RETURN, and is why I suggested that over the preferred POWER AMP IN.

If I had the excellent equipment you listed, I would wire the bass to MS-60B's INPUT, then wire L/OUTPUT to PF500's POWER AMP IN. The MS-60B would handle all effects and preamp duties, plus act as a tuner when necessary.

My A/B strategy would definitely work in a "live" setting with the PF500, with any blend of A/B via the FX MIX knob, and the PF500's XLR will output exactly the mix you set.

:bassist:
Click to expand...

Wow! Thanks for the quick response...best thread manager ever! Also, great answers...which...lead to a few more questions.

I plan to wire up the MS-60B just as you described: bass > MS-60B > Ampeg PF-500 power amp in. It seems like a better setup for live use than the tuner/fx return one; however, I still plan to use that tuner/fx return wiring for some A/B'ing.

When using this wiring (into the power amp in), the fx blend knob will have no effect, correct? Also, how would this affect the signal sent by the XLR out? Would a "post eq" signal result in all of the preamp goodness from the MS-60B? Or would it send a dry bass signal regardless of whether I used the post or pre eq setting since the PF-500's preamp is being bypassed?

Couple more...we're almost there!

Would the volume have to be controlled by the settings on the MS-60B, or would master volume still work on the front of the amp? I'm assuming gain on the front of the amp would be a "dead" knob.

Would I be able to use any other stomp boxes between the bass and the power amp in on the PF-500? Ultimately, the thought process here is MS-60B for preamp/tuner and a few other pedals for effects, which I use sparingly (fuzz, phaser and delay). I realize I could probably achieve this just using the input in the front of the amp as well, but the amp/cab (if I use cab) simulation wouldn't be near as accurate.
 
#413
TwoRivers said:
Wow! Thanks for the quick response...best thread manager ever! Also, great answers...which...lead to a few more questions.

I plan to wire up the MS-60B just as you described: bass > MS-60B > Ampeg PF-500 power amp in. It seems like a better setup for live use than the tuner/fx return one; however, I still plan to use that tuner/fx return wiring for some A/B'ing.

When using this wiring (into the power amp in), the fx blend knob will have no effect, correct? Also, how would this affect the signal sent by the XLR out? Would a "post eq" signal result in all of the preamp goodness from the MS-60B? Or would it send a dry bass signal regardless of whether I used the post or pre eq setting since the PF-500's preamp is being bypassed?

Couple more...we're almost there!

Would the volume have to be controlled by the settings on the MS-60B, or would master volume still work on the front of the amp? I'm assuming gain on the front of the amp would be a "dead" knob.

Would I be able to use any other stomp boxes between the bass and the power amp in on the PF-500? Ultimately, the thought process here is MS-60B for preamp/tuner and a few other pedals for effects, which I use sparingly (fuzz, phaser and delay). I realize I could probably achieve this just using the input in the front of the amp as well, but the amp/cab (if I use cab) simulation wouldn't be near as accurate.
Click to expand...

Thanks!

Let me first clarify my "MS-60B As Preamp" strategy:

Bass --> MS-60B --> POWER AMP IN

Under that strategy, all front panel controls on the PF500 will be rendered useless. Additionally, the PF500's XLR out will also be useless as it will not output anything -- so now knowing you want the XLR out, we revise the strategy:

Bass --> MS-60B --> EFFECT RETURN

You will need to spin the FX MIX knob full up to 10, set rear XLR switch to POST-EQ, and now the PF's front VOLUME knob and XLR out will work for you, all other front panel controls will be rendered useless.

If you wanted, you could add physical stomp boxes to the chain:

Bass --> STOMP 1 --> STOMP 2 --> MS-60B --> STOMP 3 --> EFFECT RETURN

:bassist:
 
#418
Johno Dunn said:
And on the 350 as well?
I just need your approval, Yogi! ;)
Click to expand...

LOL!

In the case of the PF350, things are slightly different.

Like the PF500, connection to the PF350's EFFECT RETURN jack is also governed by the front panel VOLUME knob, but the PF350's XLR will not output anything as it is wired further up-stream according to Ampeg's block diagram:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

If I had the PF350, I would prefer connection via EFFECT RETURN rather than front panel INPUT in favor of the flatter/cleaner amplifier section and would not mind the non-functioning XLR out, as my B3 would supply one. Should I need the XLR and do not have a B3 or external direct box then I would connect to the PF350 via its front panel INPUT.

:bassist:
 
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