1200W Forte HP

[bucephylus]

Can I talk about lightweight and slam here without fear of getting shot in this forum?

This word slam also means (to me) extended low frequency performance without getting muddy, punch that you can feel in your gut, more of a rich and full range sound wthout the high end being strident and cold, a bigger 3D soundstage, an overall fullness in tone that is not matchable with EQ, etc.

And yes I know, this is all in my head as all of these amps have the same specs of RMS power, freq. response, distortion, burst power, etc.

Here was this weekend's test:
I bought (another) Ampeg tube pre and wanted to make sure it is working OK but my only poweramp was at our rehearsal space.
Used the effects return through a MBF800 and it sounded OK.
Then realized I had a 1001RB at home; MUCH better tone. Fuller, more bottom, more punch, etc.
Mosfet better than Class D IMO based on this test.

My ancient SWR SM400 and an Ashown ABM500 also have slam.
All the featherweights I've had did not slam: the LMII, GB 9.2, TH500, and to a lesser degree the MBF800.

If Mr. Bergantino can get slam out of light weight, I'm in!

No offense intended; but, your sample of Class D is pretty limited.

BTW, what cab did you run the 9.2 with? My 9.0 had plenty of the slam you are describing, while driving a Berg NV610. It displaced a TE Hexavalve, which was no slouch either. The one thing I did notice about the early Class D stuff was an apparent weakness at driving super inefficient cabs. But, since going all in on Jim’s cabs, I don’t have much experience with that aspect any more.

 

[Low Class]

Here was this weekend's test:
I bought (another) Ampeg tube pre and wanted to make sure it is working OK but my only poweramp was at our rehearsal space.
Used the effects return through a MBF800 and it sounded OK.
Then realized I had a 1001RB at home; MUCH better tone. Fuller, more bottom, more punch, etc.
Mosfet better than Class D IMO based on this test.

You won't get any argument from me on this. Last week I tried another companies amp that's using the same 1200 watt module as the Forte HP expecting to hear that "heft". I was thoroughly disappointed!! I hope Bergantino has something figured out with this module that this other company did not.

 

[basscapes]

No offense meant here, but it seriously reminds me of a 1970's vintage Japanese integrated amp!

I'm sure it's killer in the sonics department, but as I said, can't get past that look...

On the other hand, my Quilter BB800 looks like it should be powering up prototype PCBs in a lab somewhere, but sounds killer too!

As per usual, disregard my ramblings...

 

[Chadwick123]

I'm going to take a leap of faith and try the Forte HP when it's released as my first venture into Class D. Like those above, I have my doubts regarding the slam department. But, I have never known Jim Bergantino to BS me or make any bass product that didn't sound insane, and he says this thing delivers. We shall see. I need something that's not going to tear up my fingertips like the Aguilar does when its part of a dense mix and kinda lacking cut and clarity without really attacking the strings. I tried a GK rb1001 recently, and I actually loved its transient response off the fingers and the overall clarity of the amp. But, it still had a one trick pony thing happening, and cheapish sound to it compared to the Aggie. Ugh, the problems we face as bassists. One thing I will tell you all until the end of time is that the db751 and the NV212t (and probably the whole NV series) are a match made in heaven. The Aggie's natural flat EQ settings are just perfectly tamed and delivered by the NV as a very tight and supremely creamy bass tone. So, the HP has a big challenge ahead. But, in Jim Bergantino I trust.

 

[bucephylus]

I'm going to take a leap of faith and try the Forte HP when it's released as my first venture into Class D. Like those above, I have my doubts regarding the slam department. But, I have never known Jim Bergantino to BS me or make any bass product that didn't sound insane, and he says this thing delivers. We shall see. I need something that's not going to tear up my fingertips like the Aguilar does when its part of a dense mix and kinda lacking cut and clarity without really attacking the strings. I tried a GK rb1001 recently, and I actually loved its transient response off the fingers and the overall clarity of the amp. But, it still had a one trick pony thing happening, and cheapish sound to it compared to the Aggie. Ugh, the problems we face as bassists. One thing I will tell you all until the end of time is that the db751 and the NV212t (and probably the whole NV series) are a match made in heaven. The Aggie's natural flat EQ settings are just perfectly tamed and delivered by the NV as a very tight and supremely creamy bass tone. So, the HP has a big challenge ahead. But, in Jim Bergantino I trust.

One thing to keep in mind is that we do all have our own tonal preferences. I selected TE Hexavalve, referred to above, as my first amp on my NV610, after A/Bing against the DB750. I absolutely loathed what the DB750 did; and felt like I was somewhat defective, given all the positive comments the Aggie was getting. WAAAY to much upper mid drive for my purposes. I could not get that amp back in the box for return fast enough. For me, the TE was just much more musical sounding.

And then, later, I put my Shuttle 9.0 on the NV610 as a kind of joke, and was blown away by what that combination did.

I did gig the B|Amp for about a year and a half, and had no complaints about its performance. Just decided I’m actually stuck on my Demeter gear with the Bergantino cabs. Different flavors of great.

 

[Chadwick123]

One thing to keep in mind is that we do all have our own tonal preferences. I selected TE Hexavalve, referred to above, as my first amp on my NV610, after A/Bing against the DB750. I absolutely loathed what the DB750 did; and felt like I was somewhat defective, given all the positive comments the Aggie was getting. WAAAY to much upper mid drive for my purposes. I could not get that amp back in the box for return fast enough. For me, the TE was just much more musical sounding.

And then, later, I put my Shuttle 9.0 on the NV610 as a kind of joke, and was blown away by what that combination did.

I did gig the B|Amp for about a year and a half, and had no complaints about its performance. Just decided I’m actually stuck on my Demeter gear with the Bergantino cabs. Different flavors of great.

Interesting. Well, something must've been wrong with the db750 you tried, because the hi-mids on the Aggie/NV combo are super subdued, almost to a fault, in my experience. I used to have a Demeter Pre into a Crown lead sled, but I found that to sound a little too sterile for my tastes.

 

[bucephylus]

Interesting. Well, something must've been wrong with the db750 you tried, because the hi-mids on the Aggie/NV combo are super subdued, almost to a fault, in my experience. I used to have a Demeter Pre into a Crown lead sled, but I found that to sound a little too sterile for my tastes.

Well, that’s exactly what I mean. We do not all play the same instruments or signal chains, nor do we all hear things the same way. For that reason, it is difficult to get on the same page with some of these discussions. Interpretation of “slam” is one of them, even though most of us understand what it means.

 

[Jim C]

No offense intended; but, your sample of Class D is pretty limited.

BTW, what cab did you run the 9.2 with? My 9.0 had plenty of the slam you are describing, while driving a Berg NV610. It displaced a TE Hexavalve, which was no slouch either. The one thing I did notice about the early Class D stuff was an apparent weakness at driving super inefficient cabs. But, since going all in on Jim’s cabs, I don’t have much experience with that aspect any more.

I used a Dr. Bass 2x12 and I think I had the GB 2x12 when I had the Shuttle 9.2.
Neither are super effecient but they are not ineffecient either.
Whenever I pushed the bass on the 9.2 I felt it got muddy.
The HPF is set reasonably high on these amps so that could be part of it.
It was a nice clean amp but didn't have the slam of my other amps.

Even though the SVT-CL had considerably less power, it just felt more stout.
Also had a Fender 800 Pro (1kW), Ashdown (575 watts) and an ancient SM400 (about 500 watts) and they all kicked like mules.
I understand that many folks love the new class D amps. I have not yet tried a Mesa or Quilter.
I was a little disappointed by the Genzler 800 as it was close to the MBF 800 and not enough slam.

OTOH, I think most of us are a little quirky and that what we like one day which may not be the hot ticket a year from now; sometimes that music dictates one amp over another.

In a previous life I was recording engineer in pro twin 24 track studios (for you youngsters we used to use something called magnetic tape when dinasaurs roamed the earth) with Neve, SSL, MCI, and Sony consoles.
I love knobs and what they do.
Ironically the 9.2 was frustrating as I could never get the tone in my head no matter how much time I spent adjusting.
In the end, it just wasn't the right amp for me.

PS - It would not surprise me if the new Forte HP is magnificent as I love the Bergy cabinets.

Did you guys get the slam you wanted from previous Bergantino amps?

 

[Chadwick123]

I have asked that question before and have heard most users say - not as much an Aguilar db751 - but plenty hard enough. This Forte HP is supposed to be a whole different animal that Jim says can keep up with a 751 easily.

 

[okcrum]

...
Then realized I had a 1001RB at home; MUCH better tone. Fuller, more bottom, more punch, etc.
Mosfet better than Class D IMO based on this test.
...

1001RB/RB-II are also BJT, no MOSFETs.

 

[Jim C]

Thanks for this correction.

 

[Passinwind]

1001RB/RB-II are also BJT, no MOSFETs.

Not to mention that the vast majority of Class D audio amps use MOSFET output devices.

 

[agedhorse]

To clarify a factual inaccuracy, the HPF on the Shuttle 9.2 is not by any means set relatively high. It's about 31-32Hz and with the LF Boost (extend) switch on its closer to 27-28Hz.

 

[Jim C]

To clarify a factual inaccuracy, the HPF on the Shuttle 9.2 is not by any means set relatively high. It's about 31-32Hz and with the LF Boost (extend) switch on its closer to 27-28Hz.

It may be but it didn't sound or act that way to me

 

[Chadwick123]

1001RB/RB-II are also BJT, no MOSFETs.

Interesting. Maybe that’s what I meant when I said above that I loved the basic tone of the 1001rb, but it sounded cheap-ish. The “slam” wasn’t as slammin as the 751.

 

[bucephylus]

The last thing I am going to post on this “slam” perception is this:

Amp manufacturers play games with the volume pot taper in the design. In some designs, the taper is super linear, meaning that a larger part of the gain happens in the initial on rotation of the volume pot. This makes the amp feel like it is extra muscular. With a powerful amp, this can be very convincing that something special is going on.

Other amps have more linear tapers, and get up to speed a bit more gradually, reaching their full power closer to the end of rotation travel.

One has to be very careful not to confuse differences in volume taper with differences in actual drive capability.

I’ll just leave it there.

 

[Brad Johnson]

The last thing I am going to post on this “slam” perception is this:

Amp manufacturers play games with the volume pot taper in the design. In some designs, the taper is super linear, meaning that a larger part of the gain happens in the initial on rotation of the volume pot. This makes the amp feel like it is extra muscular. With a powerful amp, this can be very convincing that something special is going on.

Other amps have more linear tapers, and get up to speed a bit more gradually, reaching their full power closer to the end of rotation travel.

One has to be very careful not to confuse differences in volume taper with differences in actual drive capability.

I’ll just leave it there.

That mirrors my experience with my Shuttle 9.0. I made the rookie mistake of not turning the gains up enough when I first started using it. I knew better and did it anyway. Then one day I pushed the gains higher and there it was... exactly what I had been missing.

It wasn't the amp's fault.

 

[agedhorse]

The last thing I am going to post on this “slam” perception is this:

Amp manufacturers play games with the volume pot taper in the design. In some designs, the taper is super linear, meaning that a larger part of the gain happens in the initial on rotation of the volume pot. This makes the amp feel like it is extra muscular. With a powerful amp, this can be very convincing that something special is going on.

Other amps have more linear tapers, and get up to speed a bit more gradually, reaching their full power closer to the end of rotation travel.

One has to be very careful not to confuse differences in volume taper with differences in actual drive capability.

I’ll just leave it there.

That mirrors my experience with my Shuttle 9.0. I made the rookie mistake of not turning the gains up enough when I first started using it. I knew better and did it anyway. Then one day I pushed the gains higher and there it was... exactly what I had been missing.

It wasn't the amp's fault.

This is exactly one of the challenges in designing an amp that appeals to the marketing departments than to the players. The problem is that marketing departments seem to have gotten their message out that if an amp SEEMS louder early in the rotation of the control, that equates to a "more powerful" amp even though it's less appealing to the more advanced player.

 

[Dragonlord]

FWIW, since the discussion went down that road, the Glockenklang Heart Rock was more linear in the perception of volume, it started really low and had more to give after 12 o'clock, which isn't the case with all amps indeed. I loved that with that amp. I think that the B|Amp is less linear in comparison, I mean it gets louder earlier, although I can't A/B them since I sold the Glock. I still feel like the lead sleds like the Heart Rock and DB750 had more "slam" - the B|Amp isn't "soft" by any means, but there was certainly something special about those 20kg monsters and it wasn't the volume pot.

 

[Jim C]

That mirrors my experience with my Shuttle 9.0. I made the rookie mistake of not turning the gains up enough when I first started using it. I knew better and did it anyway. Then one day I pushed the gains higher and there it was... exactly what I had been missing.
It wasn't the amp's fault.

Brad, do you mean the channel volume or the master?
I tried mine with the channel volume at 9:00 and noon and then at about 3:00 (as per the owner's manual)
I like a cleaner signal so the noon position sounded best (to me)
I can't imagine having the master much past noon as the amp makes a lot of power

Understood about volume pot taper, but when the channel volume is at about noon and the amp is blazing, stage volume loud. I think the pots are pretty much out of the equation. My GB 2x12 can't take nearly the full power of the 9.2 but it will get crazy, dangerous, loud should you want to go down that road

Just to be clear; I liked the 9.2 and gigged with it for over a year.
I'd use one again in a heartbeat with a provided back line; it just wasn't my favorite.

Obviously there is no better, just different.