18 inch cab

[GrowlerBox]

personally I firmly believe that a lot of the disagreements here on TB would completely disappear with a blind listening test and peoples wallets laid wide open...

also, one man's mud is another man's chocolate. the OP has fervently proclaimed his love for deep, boomy, muddy, old-time meat-and-potatoes bass (and he's probably been playing for longer than a lot of us have been alive) so why can't we just let him have it?

I must admit I was shocked to read that 18"s have fallen out of favor... when did that happen? with whom? (I love reading the posts where people show pics of their rig in the garage and admit their wife won't allow it into the house, but instead you usually get all kinds of reasons why tiny speakers are so much better...)

And I see a strange dichotomy in discussions like this. on one hand people say "speaker size has no bearing on low frequencies" and then other times I see them say things like "we always have PA support so I don't need a lot of watts." of all the different types of PA cabs I have used or have seen over the years I have never seen any with only 10" low frequency drivers (and yes I know I haven't been to the wine-tasting shows at the art museum lately where they have pa cabs like that.)

am I missing something? I hope not. also where can I buy some 3 inch subs I really want to shake the clubs...

The OP can pursue whatever tone he pleases, and he may also purchase cabinets with whatever driver size he pleases and according to whatever criteria he believes are important. However, he has made a number of incorrect assumptions concerning the way these things are inter-related, expressed them on a public forum, and he got called on it. So what? How long do you think I'd last if I claimed that I get deeper tones from a tolex-covered cabinet than a carpeted one? It's every bit as relevant, which is to say, not at all.

 

[Steveaux]

... if I claimed that I get deeper tones from a tolex-covered cabinet than a carpeted one?

What color tolex?

 

[root fifth]

Well i must admit i am only 24 been playing for a little over 8 months picked it up as a hobby since me and the wife had kids.Lost alot of hunting time with 2 babys!Anyway wife and her whole family plays so i wanted to.Always liked the sound of bass and there was no bass player so whala here i am.Now i also jam in a string band style group!Anyway i dont do good with overbearing teacher type people i see i pissed alot of people off!Sorry i am learning and i am way behind the curve!I know no bassist only guys that play every now and then due to there band needing one.So my options for ?s and help are limited!I turn here with my ?s and my have been mislead off the net to.But it is what it is.I have no plans of being a great basses or touring with a band just want to jam and play my string music and hold down them lows!

 

[masonsjax]

Congrats on the new family, the new hobby, and welcome to Talkbass, where you can argue all day with folks you'd probably buy beers for if you were face to face. Despite the wide variety of opinions and suggestions you will get from an open ended question like this, I'm sure you will eventually come to a decision and find a solution that makes you happy.

 

[GrowlerBox]

Well i must admit i am only 24 been playing for a little over 8 months picked it up as a hobby since me and the wife had kids.Lost alot of hunting time with 2 babys!Anyway wife and her whole family plays so i wanted to always liked the sound of bass and there was no bass player so whala here i am.Now i also jam in a string band style group!Anyway i dont do good with overbearing teacher type people i see i pissed alot of people off!Sorry i am learning and i am way behind the curve!I know no bassist only guys that play every now and then due to there band needing one.So my options for ?s and help are limited!I turn here with my ?s and my have been mislead off the net to.But it is what it is.I have no plans of being a great basses or touring with a band just want to jam and play my string music and hold down them lows!

And more power to ya, man. Given all that, you have an opportunity to go in search of a cabinet armed with some facts and not get ripped off. If you find an 18" you love, go for it, but don't ignore the 410s or 212s (for example) just because you think they won't suit based on some preconceived ideas.

Good luck in your quest!

 

[root fifth]

Well i guess how did you guys and girls get where you are did you have a mentore or just trial and error.I would love to find someone in my area to take me under there wing!I live in S.E indiana right outside cincinnati.Looked into lessions but it just seems to be 16 year old kids working for spare money trying to teach theory out of a book!Every one i play with is self tought and could not tell you what key there in let alone what time it is being played in!

 

[babebambi]

I must admit I was shocked to read that 18"s have fallen out of favor... when did that happen? with whom? (I love reading the posts where people show pics of their rig in the garage and admit their wife won't allow it into the house, but instead you usually get all kinds of reasons why tiny speakers are so much better

I made that comment about 18" fallen out of favor so I will responds to this. I say this simply because of the all the speaker sizes available these days, there are less 18" (relativity speaking in terms of ratio with other sizes) then say 20 years ago. It's in the same sense as saying carburetor has fallen out of favor. The 18" we see on those posts are a niche not the mainstream. Doesn't mean nobody wants them anymore. I use two SWR BigBen's despite of some of their short-coming (you would know, I am in the big cab club as well). I also wants to say that whatever being in favor, does not automatically make it the best choice either.

And I see a strange dichotomy in discussions like this. on one hand people say "speaker size has no bearing on low frequencies" and then other times I see them say things like "we always have PA support so I don't need a lot of watts."

Not sure how these two relates ...

of all the different types of PA cabs I have used or have seen over the years I have never seen any with only 10" low frequency drivers.

am I missing something? I hope not. also where can I buy some 3 inch subs I really want to shake the clubs...

I am on the side that there are more effective ways to achieves what a typical 18" cab can give us. Yes, I believe it when Bill says that the size of a woofer has very very little to do with the voicing of a cab. And, I see 18" sub for PA declining, giving ways to 15" sub. Why not 10"? Just because it's not the best in terms of (cost mainly) effectiveness, ATM.

 

[GrowlerBox]

Well i guess how did you guys and girls get where you are did you have a mentore or just trial and error.I would love to find someone in my area to take me under there wing!I live in S.E indiana right outside cincinnati.Looked into lessions but it just seems to be 16 year old kids working for spare money trying to teach theory out of a book!Every one i play with is self tought and could not tell you what key there in let alone what time it is being played in!

Finding a good teacher is difficult and important, and I'm with you on not wanting a 16 year old kid telling me what's what (I'm a grumpy 42 year old doctor ). On the other hand, there will be many good bass teachers who won't know much about cabinet design and Thiele-Small parameters -- staying tuned to TB with an open mind, and doing a bit of reading around the area is how I've picked up the little I have in this field, hopefully just enough not to be talked into some piece of crap at the local music hypermarket just 'cause they've got 30 more of 'em out back.

There's a bunch of smart guys who post here regularly, and it doesn't take too long to figure out who they are.

Go well.

 

[anonymous101511]

wow, this thread was entertaining! I say try the 18" cab, probably won't give you much top end response ( if you need that) but if you believe one 'self proclaimed' expert here, the 18" should have all the highs of a 4", according to his philosophy of size not dictating frequency response. Doesn't explain why the Phil Jones amps sound so terrible with no low end whatsoever. I tried ALL of them at the NAMM show, BTW.
18's are still the top choice for sub woofers in pro sound but they cross them over to the 15's at 80hZ, FYI.

 

[SactoBass]

IMO, the sweet spot ATM, in regards to bang for buck, is centered around cabs with the 3015LF.

Bingo!

 

[GrowlerBox]

I am on the side that there are more effective ways to achieves what a typical 18" cab can give us. Yes, I believe it when Bill says that the size of a woofer has very very little to do with the FR of a cab. And, I see 18" sub for PA declining, giving ways to 15" sub. Why not 10"? Just because it's not the best in terms of (cost mainly) effectiveness, ATM.

Somewhere on TB, BFM has claimed he could make a sub from the right 4" speaker, he just wouldn't want to have to transport the cabinet -- i.e. it would need a f***ing big horn. Cabinet design is a complex compromise between a relatively large number of variables, of which cone diameter is related primarily (if not only) to dispersion of the directional frequencies of sound.

 

[babebambi]

wow, this thread was entertaining! I say try the 18" cab, probably won't give you much top end response ( if you need that) but if you believe one 'self proclaimed' expert here, the 18" should have all the highs of a 4", according to his philosophy of size not dictating frequency response. Doesn't explain why the Phil Jones amps sound so terrible with no low end whatsoever. I tried ALL of them at the NAMM show, BTW.
18's are still the top choice for sub woofers in pro sound but they cross them over to the 15's at 80hZ, FYI.

These are the PJB amps. They don't make a whole lot of sound if not connected with cab(s).

But if you connect one of those amps with one of these cab(s), and still find it lacking in bass, I don't know what to say. For all we know, could be the NAMM SPL police demanding the vendor to keep it quiet.

BTW, 18"s could have lots of highs, you just won't notice unless you are right in front of it (angle wise).

 

[hrgiger]

I must admit I was shocked to read that 18"s have fallen out of favor... when did that happen? with whom?

I made that comment about 18" fallen out of favor so I will responds to this. I say this simply because of the all the speaker sizes available these days, there are less 18" (relativity speaking in terms of ratio with other sizes) then say 20 years ago.

I know, I was not serious. I do think sometimes its kind of like 1970 Stingrays with 454s are out of favor too, but if the showrooms all of a sudden all had them...

And I see a strange dichotomy in discussions like this. on one hand people say "speaker size has no bearing on low frequencies" and then other times I see them say things like "we always have PA support so I don't need a lot of watts." of all the different types of PA cabs I have used or have seen over the years I have never seen any with only 10" low frequency drivers (and yes I know I haven't been to the wine-tasting shows at the art museum lately where they have pa cabs like that.)

Not sure how these two relates...

The whole thing is the paradox. Its like they say "Why would you ever need cabs with 18"s I get everything I ever wanted out of my 210 cab it really goes low" and since they have piqued your interest you go check them out and they are running through a huge PA with 18" or 15" subs, multiple ones. ?


And here is the largest, best, most expensive audiophile folded horn subwoofer supplied system in the world which uses 16 x 18" drivers and huge horns to achieve great sound, so maybe there is something to 18"s after all? I'm not sure what drivers those are he is using... amazing.

http://www.royaldevice.com/custom.htm

 

[babebambi]

I know, I was not serious. I do think sometimes its kind of like 1970 Stingrays with 454s are out of favor too, but if the showrooms all of a sudden all had them...

boy do I feel stupid now

 

[Jack]

Hey yo know if I was a major-brand manufacturer you can be sure that my 4x10" would sound 'punchy' and my 1x18" would sound 'dark' and 'low'. There is a very good reason that the cabs should sound like that, not cone size but customer expectations.

Even though I know that cone size has no bearing on anything in a properly setup box, you and me both know how the majority of speaker configurations 'sound', a 4x10" sounds like a 4x10". I just think it has more to do with smart manufacturers playing to the majority of bass player's (admittedly uninformed) opinions.

I am of course not talking about niche manufactures like BFM, Barefaced and the like. Just the kind of gear you get from GC.

 

[jondog]

And here is the largest, best, most expensive audiophile folded horn subwoofer supplied system in the world which uses 16 x 18" drivers and huge horns to achieve great sound, so maybe there is something to 18"s after all? I'm not sure what drivers those are he is using... amazing.

http://www.royaldevice.com/custom.htm

That sub might be cool if it had some damping material on the walls. As it is right now it would suck because it would beam mids like a laser. They should try egg cartons.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Somewhere on TB, BFM has claimed he could make a sub from the right 4" speaker, he just wouldn't want to have to transport the cabinet -- i.e. it would need a f***ing big horn.

http://www.passdiy.com/pdf/KleinHorn.pdf

That sub might be cool if it had some damping material on the walls. As it is right now it would suck because it would beam mids like a laser.

When making a joke add a smiley.
Otherwise someone might deduce that you're clueless, thinking that subs have midrange output.

And here is the largest, best, most expensive audiophile folded horn subwoofer supplied system in the world which uses 16 x 18" drivers and huge horns to achieve great sound, so maybe there is something to 18"s after all? I'm not sure what drivers those are he is using... amazing.

Pics of that system crop up on a regular basis, and mainly serve as a warning how not to design a horn. It's big, and expensive, but by no means the best. As far as bass horn designs go it's far closer to the worst.

 

[GregDunn]

http://www.passdiy.com/pdf/KleinHorn.pdf

That is true awesomeness. Always good to see what Nelson has been doing.

You can do amazing things with a small driver if you know what you're doing. For my senior thesis I built a vented cabinet with 4 - 5" Utah drivers and a modest active EQ to get one of the Chebyshev alignments described by Thiele and Small. It went deeper than I had expected (but measured in accordance with the design, of course) and was more than loud/clean enough to fill a large lab room when I cranked it up. I had no problem with well-designed vented systems of any size after that experience.

 

[jondog]

http://www.passdiy.com/pdf/KleinHorn.pdf

When making a joke add a smiley.
Otherwise someone might deduce that you're clueless, thinking that subs have midrange output.

Pics of that system crop up on a regular basis, and mainly serve as a warning how not to design a horn. It's big, and expensive, but by no means the best. As far as bass horn designs go it's far closer to the worst.

OK you're right the mids part was a joke
But I stand by the egg carton suggestion.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

But I stand by the egg carton suggestion.

It would have no effect.