3Leaf Audio Club - Episode 2

[kranahan]

I would not consider "chinesium" as racist.

Western companies often ask asian companies to produce goods as cheap as possible. As a result, the price is low, but the quality is reduced. Not because they can't do it, but because we, westerners, keep asking them to make it cheap.

Sure, "Chinesium" is a degrading metonymy, but it only refers to the low quality of a product made in China (as ordered by Westerners, most of the time). That's a fact.
IMO, It has nothing to do with the ethnicity of the workers assembling the products.

I could be wrong though.

I agree with this. Especially since he's referring to low quality casts. That being said, I will say that Spencer is not the best with words. I've read his posts over years on TB and other sites. Some of his replies got me saying, "Wow, he actually said that!"

 

[genyc]

I've known Spencer since he was 17. He's a very bright young man who has come up against some of the harsh realities of MI as well as life in general.

Obviously Spencer is frustrated with the situation. He's not intentionally being "rascist". The use of that word describes a much larger multi-faceted scenario.

If you don't agree with his views don't buy his product.

Full stop!!!!!

 

[WG Plum]

Well, it's not going to hurt his business, he's niche enough and his output is already miniscule. He's not going to have any trouble selling whatever he makes.

 

[kranahan]

Well, it's not going to hurt his business, he's niche enough and his output is already miniscule. He's not going to have any trouble selling whatever he makes.

Let's be real. We can't buy his products because they're not in stock.

 

[Stubb]

The man can make better pedals than sentences. But I didn't see anything I couldn't swallow.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Closed for moderator review.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Re-opened. Please try to keep the political commentary out of the thread.

 

[MisticoRitualista]

Does anyone know why 3leaf products have yet to cloned? I don't think Ive ever seen one.

A few months ago I offered my Chromatron to JohnK to see if hed want to examine & clone it but he wasnt interested at the time. I guess Spencer may eventually release it again.

There is such a high demand for Spencer's pedals but his releases are few & far between... why arent other builders quick to step in & take advantage of the demand? Is it a matter of accessibility of parts?

 

[labeledbass]

Are you asking why someone hasn't cloned them? Or why Spencer hasn't taken advantage of such a market?

Cloning shouldn't even be approached unless the product is well discontinued and/or approved by the maker.

IMHO it would have been wise to jump in and push anything through, in the past couple years. I have a feeling Spencer really gets hung up on the enclosure(s). You rarely see him complaining there is a component problem. But it's his gig, so what ya going do..

Cloning has so many angles involved

 

[MisticoRitualista]

Are you asking why someone hasn't cloned them? Or why Spencer hasn't taken advantage of such a market?

Cloning shouldn't even be approached unless the product is well discontinued and/or approved by the maker.

IMHO it would have been wise to jump in and push anything through, in the past couple years. I have a feeling Spencer really gets hung up on the enclosure(s). You rarely see him complaining there is a component problem. But it's his gig, so what ya going do..

Cloning has so many angles involved

I was asking why they havent been cloned but the respect aspect makes sense I guess if the original is still in production... I thought Id seen clones of the Smallsound/Bigsound Mini out before Brian shut down & there are Darkglass clones out there but they are of older models... I dunno, I just thought it was strange given the demand.

 

[Romain909]

I would say it has not been cloned for legal reasons.

 

[MisticoRitualista]

I would say it has not been cloned for legal reasons.

That makes sense. If that is the case how are pedals from other brands cloned even if the original developer is still operating? Can clones only be made if production of the original is discontinued?

 

[villegastx]

Im NOT a lawyer, but, as long as I know, Its ilegal to copy a pcb or schematics, but if you change a single resistor or the location of anything, then it is legal.

 

[Ricky Caboverde]

I think whether a pedal gets cloned or not might have to do with the potential size of the market. Spencer's stuff is pretty hot among a decent segment of the market represented by bassists; but in the grand scheme of things, that isn't saying much. Once you bring guitarists into the equation and a pedal's relative popularity among that group, things change--I think that's why perhaps the SS/BS mini was cloned yet none of 3Leaf's filters. I might way off base, but that's my reasoning.

To say nothing of the legal implications...

 

[Erithon]

Some good points being made here. My thinking aligns with labeledbass's: in addition to the bespoke bass pedal market being relatively small, the established builders are largely aware of each other and, most likely, all respect the originality and integrity of each other's creations. Here are two illustrative examples:

1. The Chase Bliss Wombtone and Wombtone MKII are based on the Mu-Tron Phasor II, though vastly re-envisioned with the whole "analog brain, digital hear" approach: presets, external dipswitches, tap tempo, etc. But when Mu-Tron introduced the Phasor III in 2020--after decades of no production--Joel "felt bad/weird" and discontinued the Wombtone MKII.
2. Nick Williams moved on from Dunwich Amplification and authorized Magic Pedals, who had already been building the Dunwich designs, to continue to produce his designs.

In the first case you have a builder discontinuing a pedal somewhat based on another pedal once that original pedal came back into production. In the second case you have the original designer closing up shop and selling his circuits to his longtime builder to continue production. In both cases you can see the respect as everything is happening aboveboard.

 

[Ricky Caboverde]

Some good points being made here. My thinking aligns with labeledbass's: in addition to the bespoke bass pedal market being relatively small, the established builders are largely aware of each other and, most likely, all respect the originality and integrity of each other's creations. Here are two illustrative examples:

1. The Chase Bliss Wombtone and Wombtone MKII are based on the Mu-Tron Phasor II, though vastly re-envisioned with the whole "analog brain, digital hear" approach: presets, external dipswitches, tap tempo, etc. But when Mu-Tron introduced the Phasor III in 2020--after decades of no production--Joel "felt bad/weird" and discontinued the Wombtone MKII.
2. Nick Williams moved on from Dunwich Amplification and authorized Magic Pedals, who had already been building the Dunwich designs, to continue to produce his designs.

In the first case you have a builder discontinuing a pedal somewhat based on another pedal once that original pedal came back into production. In the second case you have the original designer closing up shop and selling his circuits to his longtime builder to continue production. In both cases you can see the respect as everything is happening aboveboard.

Boutique/Handmade effects pedal builders aside, what of companies that "specialize" in clones? That's what I thought @MisticoRitualista had in mind. Stuff like 68 Pedals' "King of Clone" or DemonFX's "Dual Gun," both clones of Analogman's "King of Tone" and KingTone's "The Duellist", respectively.

 

[labeledbass]

I seriously think brands that specialize in cloning, are either too trash to even bother with litigation, make it seem that the clone is very limited and not worth the trouble, or do it properly and either communicate with the origin, or "pay homage" to something very much out of production. (I'll let you fill in the blank to whom belongs in each category..)

Like, it would still probably be illegal to make a fliptop combo, called the B-15 and sporting a Ampeg logo but not illegal to shove a solid stage B-15 preamp into a stomp box. The "likeness" of a design can go a long way, even if the schematic is off by a couple components.

Best bet is, to come up with something original, possibly stemming from something you like. The only scenario I see a 1:1 copy being ok is, if NO profit is made, created for personal use, I wouldn't even go as far to use it in a paid gig/studio time

Like I said, cloning is a touchy subject.

 

[RJ]

My understanding is you can't patent a circuit. Few pedal designs are different enough from one another in the court's eyes to be distinct enough, especially when you look at distortion/overdrive/fuzz circuits. Also, it's very costly to do so. So unless you're Boss etc a patent is likely out of the question.

Regarding the company's that are making clones that are also infringing on the IP (copying the look/visual aesthetic). Taking someone to court is expensive. And, my understanding is pretty limited here but, I believe most of these companies are based in China, further complicating the process.

 

[Maxi Funkl]

The music industry is nothing but a huge market full of clones.
How many people make a Jazz or P Bass or Strat or Tele or LP. How many people make MM or Honer style Basses.
How many SVT in a pedal are there exactly? Tons of Mu-tron, Rat, Klon, Muff, OC-2, POG etc etc are out there.
But with certain brands people want that original name stamped on the product.
Genesis cars & SUV's while fantastic in many rights haven't slowed down the sale of high European car brands it tries to emulate and compete against. Honestly half of the 3Leaf appeal is it's lack of attainability sure you could make your take on one of the pedals but the desire for the original would probably just increase.

 

[darkhalf]

I seriously think brands that specialize in cloning, are either too trash to even bother with litigation, make it seem that the clone is very limited and not worth the trouble, or do it properly and either communicate with the origin, or "pay homage" to something very much out of production. (I'll let you fill in the blank to whom belongs in each category..)

Like, it would still probably be illegal to make a fliptop combo, called the B-15 and sporting a Ampeg logo but not illegal to shove a solid stage B-15 preamp into a stomp box. The "likeness" of a design can go a long way, even if the schematic is off by a couple components.

Best bet is, to come up with something original, possibly stemming from something you like. The only scenario I see a 1:1 copy being ok is, if NO profit is made, created for personal use, I wouldn't even go as far to use it in a paid gig/studio time

Like I said, cloning is a touchy subject.

i agree with this 100 percent sir. i aint a lawyer too but this makes alot sense. as legality ,trademarking etc can be a very touchy subject. anyway im im here as well to learn so its aweome to be in this group. cheers!