Double Bass #9 or b10?

[Steve Freides]

Borrowing @Don Kasper's image from his other post. I love that the chord has #9 in it but that Don has notated it as Bb and not A#. I would, too, but it brings up a chord notation thing I've never understood, so ...

... when you hear something like G-B-F-Bb - yes, I know it's not the same chord as Don's, and it's not the same discussion; this is a different thread - do you hear a dominant 7th chord with a flat 3rd on top, or do you hear a sharp 9, and why the heck isn't it called a flat 10? Please set me straight and explain this to me.

I play the voicing I gave on the guitar all the time - play a G pentatonic or blues scale, then end on that chord. It's become almost a cliche for me but I still like it and I still do it. With a guitar in standard tuning

4th string, 5th fret = G (2nd finger)
3rd string, 4th fret = B (1st finger)
2nd string, 6th fret = F (3rd finger)
1st string, 6th fret is the note under discussion = A# or Bb (4th finger)

Happy Sunday morning to you. Here is the US, or at least most of the US, we lost an hour of sleep last night as we switched from Standard Time to Daylight Saving Time.

-S-

 

[dreamadream99]

I always think of it as a chord with a major third and a minor third in it at the same time. In fact, another name for it is a major/minor cord. But we can’t write it that way because of the rule about having two of the same note in a scale. So we write it as a sharp nine just so we don’t violate one of the cardinal rules of music theory.

 

[Steve Freides]

I always think of it as a chord with a major third and a minor third in it at the same time. In fact, another name for it is a major/minor cord. But we can’t write it that way because of the rule about having two of the same note in a scale. So we write it as a sharp nine just so we don’t violate one of the cardinal rules of music theory.

It's not a scale, it's a chord, and I've never heard that rule for a chord. I get what you're saying, though.

-S-

 

[Dontknowbass]

It's not a scale, it's a chord, and I've never heard that rule for a chord. I get what you're saying, though.

-S-

Since @Don Kasper’s chord dropped the major 3rd and perfect 5th, it would be confusing to me to have a b10. I would look at as a minor major 7th chord and not the desired Maj 7 #9 #11. But that is just me.

 

[Steve Freides]

Since @Don Kasper’s chord dropped the major 3rd and perfect 5th, it would be confusing to me to have a b10. I would look at as a minor major 7th chord and not the desired Maj 7 #9 #11. But that is just me.

I guess my point is that I've never heard a #9 that sounds to me like a #9. An added 9th sounds like it's name, and a b9 does, too, and I think I'd say that for about everything else along these lines. But a #9 sounds like a b10 to my ears and it always has, and I guess that's my point.

One of my bass students was working on something pretty chromatic and at one point, the music went from A# up to D. I suppose that, in a tonal context, e.g., B harmonic minor, that would sound like a diminished 4th, but just hearing it as a couple of notes, it struck me as a major 3rd. Play the chord F#-A#-E with a D in the next octave for an example. My point, such as it is, goes like this:

Context matters, see my above example of dim 4 or M3.

I've never heard a #9 in a chord that doesn't sound like a b10. I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

-S-

 

[Dontknowbass]

I guess my point is that I've never heard a #9 that sounds to me like a #9. An added 9th sounds like it's name, and a b9 does, too, and I think I'd say that for about everything else along these lines. But a #9 sounds like a b10 to my ears and it always has, and I guess that's my point.

One of my bass students was working on something pretty chromatic and at one point, the music went from A# up to D. I suppose that, in a tonal context, e.g., B harmonic minor, that would sound like a diminished 4th, but just hearing it as a couple of notes, it struck me as a major 3rd. Play the chord F#-A#-E with a D in the next octave for an example. My point, such as it is, goes like this:

Context matters, see my above example of dim 4 or M3.

I've never heard a #9 in a chord that doesn't sound like a b10. I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

-S-

You have officially gone above my pay grade! But I totally agree that context matters.

 

[Tom Lane]

I guess my point is that I've never heard a #9 that sounds to me like a #9. An added 9th sounds like it's name, and a b9 does, too, and I think I'd say that for about everything else along these lines. But a #9 sounds like a b10 to my ears and it always has, and I guess that's my point.

One of my bass students was working on something pretty chromatic and at one point, the music went from A# up to D. I suppose that, in a tonal context, e.g., B harmonic minor, that would sound like a diminished 4th, but just hearing it as a couple of notes, it struck me as a major 3rd. Play the chord F#-A#-E with a D in the next octave for an example. My point, such as it is, goes like this:

Context matters, see my above example of dim 4 or M3.

I've never heard a #9 in a chord that doesn't sound like a b10. I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

-S-

I agree with you. It always sounds like a Minor 3rd up an octave instead of a raised 2nd to me also. I think you're right. I have no idea the reasoning behind calling it a #9 rather than a b10 except for brevity and laziness.

 

[Wasnex]

My semi-literate assumptions:

In regards to chord notation: A written #9 is not overly common, but I have seen them. Never remember seeing a b10. AFAIK, an altered dominant implies both b9 and #9.

In the example, the written b10 is in a scale with more than 7 notes, so some intervals will need to be used more than once. Depending on the goal/intent, I might write it as a #9 to be consistent with the chord. However, enharmonic spellings are commonly done to enhance readability, which may vary by individual .

Chords and extensions are normally built in thirds and notated using the following intervals: 1,3,5,7,9,11,13. With basic chords the highest interval stated implies all preceding intervals are chord tones. However there are a range of exceptions.

Exceptions:

• It's not unusual to see 2 or 4 in chord notation. AFAIK in the most correct usage, they replace the 3 (sus chords). Otherwise, I prefer the interval expressed as an extension (9 or 11).
• 6 chords are a different sort of animal and distinct from 13 chords.

 

[Wasnex]

I have no idea the reasoning behind calling it a #9 rather than a b10 except for brevity and laziness.

AFAIK #9 comes from the altered scale

 

[dreamadream99]

It's not a scale, it's a chord, and I've never heard that rule for a chord.

But where do you think the chord got those numbers from? From the scale! The 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13— those are scale degrees.

 

[dreamadream99]

But a #9 sounds like a b10 to my ears and it always has

… And I agreed with you— it DOES sound like a minor third and a major third—not a raised second. but the reason it’s not called a flatted third (or a flatted 10th), is because you can’t have a natural third and a flat third in the same scale, and since chords are based on scale degrees, neither can the chord. So they named it a sharp nine just for technical reasons.

 

[dreamadream99]

I have no idea the reasoning behind calling it a #9 rather than a b10

*sigh*…

 

[dreamadream99]

I've never heard a #9 in a chord that doesn't sound like a b10. I'd be happy to be proven wrong

You absolutely are NOT wrong. That IS how it sounds. As far as I know, everyone hears it as a major/minor chord. (They just aren’t allowed to notate it that way).

 

[Tom Lane]

… And I agreed with you— it DOES sound like a minor third and a major third—not a raised second. but the reason it’s not called a flatted third (or a flatted 10th), is because you can’t have a natural third and a flat third in the same scale, and since chords are based on scale degrees, neither can the chord. So they named it a sharp nine just for technical reasons.

Can you explain why you can't have both a major and minor third in a scale?

1 b2 b3 3 #4 #5 b7 versus 1 b2 #2 3 #4 #5 b7 Both nomenclatures seem clear to me but the first seems to make more sense. This sounds like a rule that came out of classical music mostly using triads and few 7ths and in the case of triads it seems to make sense but even then, have the minor 3rd up an octave from the major third in voices sounds good and if you have G B D Bb, I don't see a reason to refer to the Bb as a #2 rather than a minor 3rd.

 

[Steve Freides]

There are lots of note we play that aren't part of the "scale of the moment." The rules seems inadequate in this case, IMO.

-S-

 

[dreamadream99]

Can you explain why you can't have both a major and a minor third in a scale?

Yes. I will try.

Scales have to go in note order. If it’s a C major scale, the notes are CDEFGABC. You will never find that scale written as CDFb FGBbb BC. There are four reasons for this:

(1) the third scale degree needs to be a third. So if your starting root is C, the third note needs to be some kind of E— not some kind of an F. Also, there is no sixth in this example. There is a double flatted B, but the sixth note needs to be some kind of A.

(2) scales cannot have two of the same note names in them. There is no major or minor scale that has two A’s, or two B’s, or two C’s. Despite what people may call them. In fact, in the original example (G major with a minor third as well) there is no scale that has both a major third, and a minor third in it. Despite what people may call them. No scale. (Some people mistakenly write the G minor pentatonic scale as GBbBCDFG, but that is not a correct pentatonic minor scale. The actual G minor pentatonic scale is written GBbCDFG). The only exception I know of is the blues scale. In the key of G major, the G blues scale is written GBbCC#DFG. But the blue scale is a recent invention, and not part of the original western major and minor scale set. Even if we write that C sharp as a D flat, we still end up with two D’s in a row.

(3) how would you write that Key signature? Key signatures also follow rules. There is a set order of flats and sharps. And flat keys always start with a B flat, and sharp keys always start with an F sharp. But what key signature would you use for a scale that has a B flat and a B natural in it? There is no naturally occurring major or minor scale that has both a B flat and a B natural in it. And since chords are based on scale degrees, there is also no cord that has a B flat and a B natural in it. Even in my weird example of a C major scale written CDFb FGBbb BC, how would you notate that in a Key signature? Would you have a Key signature with just an F flat, and a B double flat? That doesn’t exist, and it would be confusing for the reader.

And (4) you cannot mix sharps and flats in the same Key signature. There is no key signature or key or scale that has one or more flats and one or more sharps together. Even if you invent one, there is no way to notate a recognizable Key signature for it. You would have to use accidentals.

 

[dreamadream99]

There are lots of note we play that aren't part of the "scale of the moment." The rules seems inadequate in this case, IMO.

-S-

I completely agree. Music has moved beyond the rules originally established in music theory and notation.

 

[dreamadream99]

This sounds like a rule that came out of classical music

It absolutely was. They were the first to write the rules, so they got to hand out the tickets.

 

[the_Ryan]

… And I agreed with you— it DOES sound like a minor third and a major third—not a raised second. but the reason it’s not called a flatted third (or a flatted 10th), is because you can’t have a natural third and a flat third in the same scale, and since chords are based on scale degrees, neither can the chord. So they named it a sharp nine just for technical reasons.

I think part of it too is that adding a b10/b3 to a chord symbol obscures the function of the chord. In jazz, the notes that determine the function of a chord (what it wants to resolve to) are the root, third, fifth, and seventh (or sixth for chords with tonic function*), and even though an A7#9 chord contains both a minor and major third and it sounds that way to my ear, in my opinion notating the chord symbol as A7(add b3) doesn’t tell me the player that the chord is a dominant chord with that function.

There’s also just generally the issue of music as heard not necessarily lining up with the music as written in a melodic sense once you start adding altered extensions to chords since what might look cleanest melodically might not necessarily line up with the “correct” spelling of the chord vertically.





*this is once again a reminder that in Great American Songbook tunes a min7 chord is almost never a tonic chord. In traditions outside of the GAS that don’t necessarily follow functional harmony as rigidly (minor blues, modal jazz, fusion, modern jazz) a min7 chord can very much be a tonic chord, but in the GAS and in bebop vocabulary it almost never happens.

 

[Wasnex]

Can you explain why you can't have both a major and minor third in a scale?

This page may be helpful: Altered scale - Wikipedia


My guess:

I think something specific is going on in this instance. We are talking about the altered scale, which is considered a dominant scale in this usage. The most essential tones of the altered scale are the root, major third, and dominant 7th. These tones are not altered. All of the other tones are considered nonessential, and they are altered. The unaltered nonessential tones are not present; so no Maj 2, P4, P5, or Maj 6. All of the nonessential are tones raised and lowered by 1/2 step which produces redundant enharmonics, which can be dropped. The presence of these redundant enharmonics means multiple spellings are possible. However you would probably avoid double using the essential chord tones 1,3,7.

Something I find interesting, but somewhat confounding is the shape of the altered dominant scale is the same as the 7th mode of the melodic minor scale. This scale can be called "Super Locrian" or "Locrian b4" and it would be considered diatonic if used over a functional #vii7b5 chord. This scale is not is not diatonic when used over Alt V7.