From 10 to 12 years worth. Speaking from the perspective of a trombone player who played from 5th grade through college.
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A Trombone question
- Thread starter Downunderwonder
- Start date
So you would have had to start in pre-K to actually play HS Jazz while in High School? Uh, whut?
Private lessons, sone natural talent, amd a half hour + a day of practice and you could be playing as well as most high school players by next spring.
Not meaning to derail the thread in any way but the trombone might be the greatest instrument to achieve a "drunken" musical sound with. Just sayin'.
As a brass player in a former life (actually, just about everything except trombone, but settled on trumpet) I can add a few tips. Brass is tough! As has been mentioned, lip development and lip fatigue are big factors. I would suggest taking lessons early- see if you can find a college/university professor that gives lessons on the side (that was my best experience). You really want to make sure you get the basics right and avoid learning bad habits.
The other thing is learning to practice as smart and productively as possible. All those guitar hero stories "you never saw him without a guitar in his hands, he played constantly" don't work on brass, so you have to practice smart. If you're starting from scratch, you will actually have to work up to playing for 20 minutes twice/day. Don't overplay and fatigue your lip because it can cost you a couple of days to recover. You also have to be consistent. At my best, I would notice a difference in my tone and control if I missed practice 2 days in a row- even one day meant I didn't get to progress that day because I was just catching up with where I was. It might be ok in the beginning to take an occasional day off to let you muscles develop (or heal).
Needless to say, for me, bass has been a wonderful experience! I can play (almost) as long as I want, a day, or a few, off doesn't hurt, and I have found it much easier to play the high notes than it was on my horn ; ) On the other hand, for me, it's easier to be expressive on a wind instrument and there's more physical involvement- plan on getting a good workout on your diaphragm. Have fun!
The other thing is learning to practice as smart and productively as possible. All those guitar hero stories "you never saw him without a guitar in his hands, he played constantly" don't work on brass, so you have to practice smart. If you're starting from scratch, you will actually have to work up to playing for 20 minutes twice/day. Don't overplay and fatigue your lip because it can cost you a couple of days to recover. You also have to be consistent. At my best, I would notice a difference in my tone and control if I missed practice 2 days in a row- even one day meant I didn't get to progress that day because I was just catching up with where I was. It might be ok in the beginning to take an occasional day off to let you muscles develop (or heal).
Needless to say, for me, bass has been a wonderful experience! I can play (almost) as long as I want, a day, or a few, off doesn't hurt, and I have found it much easier to play the high notes than it was on my horn ; ) On the other hand, for me, it's easier to be expressive on a wind instrument and there's more physical involvement- plan on getting a good workout on your diaphragm. Have fun!
The hottie next door to me is a trombone player and teaches to. I get to enjoy trombone daily. It makes it easy for my band to rehearse in my living room, as what comes around goes around. Her partner is a sax player and he teaches too.
I doubt you'll begin by practicing a brass instrument for an hour a day. It might take you a year before you develop the lip strength to play (well) that long. I've been playing trumpet for thirty years and although I've got good facility with the fingers, I never developed pro level endurance to play for really long periods of time.
I'm genuinely curious as to why you want to do this - what appeals to you about the 'bone, and how does your musical goal compare with what you currently do as a bassist?
Yes, way too many variables to say how long it would take you to get there. If you're an adult, already have decent reading skills, musical comprehension and a good ear (do you play fretless as well as fretted?), can control your days so you can practice daily in several short spurts and build your strength accordingly, and have access to a GOOD teacher who can really work with you, then you could be playing high school charts reasonably well in a year or two.
Understand that trombone is an unnatural act. Your bass technique can ride on the fact that you use your fingers constantly, daily, in a wide range of tasks. But when, in the course of a normal day, do you buzz your lips into a tube? And then take it further so as to try coaxing musical expression out of that apparatus?
You also have to be willing to spend time on very basic, simple things with a very slow payoff in the way of musical results. Buzzing. Airflow training and consciousness. Tone...tone...tone - it totally comes from you and how you interface with the instrument - ain't no going to the music store and buying the stomp box du jour that's going to do it for you. Ditto for range - you don't just buy extra frets or strings...it takes time, training and understanding. As instruments go, it's fairly athletic - not just the air, but also the coordination of breathing, tonguing/articulation, embouchure and slide control.
If you can lose yourself in the zen of pursuing small, incremental improvements in crazy little details, then the better suited you are for this project.
If the sound of the horn grabs you - if you love the feeling of filling space with your sound - then this may be worth your while.
And, when you do get to play in a 'bone section and feel the strength that comes from four bone players playing well, together, you may find the payoff that comes with this most maddening, yet beguiling of instruments.
Best of luck to you!
Yes, way too many variables to say how long it would take you to get there. If you're an adult, already have decent reading skills, musical comprehension and a good ear (do you play fretless as well as fretted?), can control your days so you can practice daily in several short spurts and build your strength accordingly, and have access to a GOOD teacher who can really work with you, then you could be playing high school charts reasonably well in a year or two.
Understand that trombone is an unnatural act. Your bass technique can ride on the fact that you use your fingers constantly, daily, in a wide range of tasks. But when, in the course of a normal day, do you buzz your lips into a tube? And then take it further so as to try coaxing musical expression out of that apparatus?
You also have to be willing to spend time on very basic, simple things with a very slow payoff in the way of musical results. Buzzing. Airflow training and consciousness. Tone...tone...tone - it totally comes from you and how you interface with the instrument - ain't no going to the music store and buying the stomp box du jour that's going to do it for you. Ditto for range - you don't just buy extra frets or strings...it takes time, training and understanding. As instruments go, it's fairly athletic - not just the air, but also the coordination of breathing, tonguing/articulation, embouchure and slide control.
If you can lose yourself in the zen of pursuing small, incremental improvements in crazy little details, then the better suited you are for this project.
If the sound of the horn grabs you - if you love the feeling of filling space with your sound - then this may be worth your while.
And, when you do get to play in a 'bone section and feel the strength that comes from four bone players playing well, together, you may find the payoff that comes with this most maddening, yet beguiling of instruments.
Best of luck to you!
It depends on what you mean by high school level. Some high schoolers are awful and some are pro level. I wouldn't recommend playing in public until after 2 solid years of twice a day 20 min. practice, but that's just the beginning if you want to be a Real trombone player. You may just want to play no matter what you sound like, that's legal. To get good TONE on a brass instrument takes At Least 5 years because the breathing has to advance along with lip endurance.(there are specific strength gaining exercises that make it quicker, this is where a teacher can help) You have to get to the point of having Lots of Excess capacity so that you can relax enough to not sound like an anemic cow.
It Helps to be in school where there are structured ensembles to keep you going. I doubt many adults would be able to inflict that much muscle pain without outside motivation. A college student will be playing All Day in rehearsals lessons and private practice, that's what it really takes to turn your body into an instrument (your actual flesh is whats vibrating) that is being amplified by a metal tube. Such radical body morphing requires As Much Rest Time as practice. Brass player On The Road is a whole other story- on your few days off you do not touch the horn, you need to heal. there are so many stories...
btw, the term "natural lip" was debunked years ago. For trombone it does help allot to be generally athletic, like a fitness runner or swimmer. For any brass instruments it helps to be a natural Fanatic.
It Helps to be in school where there are structured ensembles to keep you going. I doubt many adults would be able to inflict that much muscle pain without outside motivation. A college student will be playing All Day in rehearsals lessons and private practice, that's what it really takes to turn your body into an instrument (your actual flesh is whats vibrating) that is being amplified by a metal tube. Such radical body morphing requires As Much Rest Time as practice. Brass player On The Road is a whole other story- on your few days off you do not touch the horn, you need to heal. there are so many stories...
btw, the term "natural lip" was debunked years ago. For trombone it does help allot to be generally athletic, like a fitness runner or swimmer. For any brass instruments it helps to be a natural Fanatic.
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i thought the thread was intended to elicit our favorite trombone jokes. but it obviously was not intended for that purpose.
i have nothing.
i have nothing.
I'd have to disagree with the "at least 5 years" bit about getting good tone. Some people get it quick, some don't. I've seen it, but that doesn't mean it could take that long.
I'd also like to see the debunked thing about natural lip. Not challenging, so much as never heard of it being debunked. I've seen a couple people take up a horn that have only ever played orchestral strings and were at least high school proficient within a year or two. They were college students playing in our all skill level jazz band. Prior to the jazz band they had never taken up a wind instrument and only one was a music major.
I do agree with the wide range of skill someone mentioned you'd see at high School level though.
7,000 if particularly dense.
1 if amazing gifted.
All others fall somewhere in between.
Yes, Chet Baker and many others who have tried were "naturals" and did not have to practice as much as mere mortals, this will always happen. I'm referring to the average, because there will also be as many more that give it up as impossible after a few months. Also early success doesn't always mean life lasting, and players who had to work hard never stopped working as a habit, and stuck with it. You can go for years mediocre and have a breakthrough due to circumstances, like meeting the one teacher who has your key. (like Dave Douglas and Adams)
The term "natural lip" is anachronistic, like the term "********" (Really!), and has proven to be a false indicator for success. A guy named Doc Reinhart wrote a brass mechanics bible where he described mutiple teeth-lip combinations for producing the buzz, the most basic being up vs down stream players, accounting with an under-bite even. Every body is different. A Very typical scenario in the olde days (of a few years ago) is a guy who makes a great sound Somehow, his teacher can't figure it out but it's Foreign to their own experience, and it May be hampering the clean articulation of whatever music it is, so they (being authorities) change the way the student forms their embouchure, and like, years later you find out that's when they started to fail and are no longer brass players.
There is not solid number for this. It might be 3 hours for you or it might be 100 million, gazillion days. There are just a ton of variables.
For me? I have some natural musical talent that allows me get reasonably proficient on an instrument fairly quickly. For sake of argument on the 1-10 prodigy scale I'm a 7.
I first put my lips on a trombone in 7th grade and started reading HS jazz charts in 12th. Could I have read them sooner? Probably - but I wasn't seeking them they just didn't cross my bow before then. I honestly really didn't practice a lot (couple hours a week might be generous) as I made the youthful mistake of getting just good enough and then losing interest in improving. (Kind of makes me ill to consider how good I might have become with a better practice ethic as a kid.)
Anyway, back to your question: I would think if you have a reasonably talented person (let's just say a 5 on 1-10 prodigy scale) who WANTS to read HS jazz charts and works towards THAT goal, and has someone to help answer questions (teacher) they could probably get there in a couple years with a couple hours a day of practice.
It just depends on so much : natural talent, prior musical background, DESIRE, DEDICATION, work ethic) for there to be any one answer to a question like this.
A lot of jazz guys today (especially in big band) still use "pea shooters" for a number of reasons, chief among them being that they sound great in a big band trombone section, whereas .525 and .547 bore instruments tend to be too dark and a bit unfocused for big band and commercial music. In the past they may have used .480 or .492 (the real pea shooters) for trombone 1 or 2 parts today they probably use a .500 or .508 horn, for trombone 3 you may see a .525 or .547 horn w/valve, and of course on bass trombone you'll have one or two valves and a .562 bore. Some typical lead horns are King 2B, King 3B, Conn 6H, Bach 12 or 16M. The smaller bore horns are also easier to develop a good sound on and play for long periods than the larger bore counter parts. Of course if you're the only bone in a band you can play what you want and make it work. The small bore horns that kids learn on and use for marching band in HS are generally pretty good for HS jazz band charts. My college son plays bass trombone (.562 bore) in big band, large bore tenor (.547 w/valve) in symphony, and small bore (.500) in pep band and for jazz ensemble work. By far the easiest to play is the small bore
As for how long it will take? If you're dedicated probably at least a year, more likely two if you're already fluent reading the bass clef and competent in another instrument. You will need a teacher, either in person or skype to get through embouchure issues. As your "lip" improves you probably also find the need to change mouth pieces and that will tend to mess up your playing for awhile as you adapt and hopefully improve.
Hear, hear! In my blurb, above, I all-capped GOOD teacher for a reason. Everybody's body is different. Purity of buzz is something that seems to be common to the greatest players I've known - but the mechanics of transferring that buzz into music are tricky and highly variable. Reinhart is deeply mis-understood because in developing his taxonomy of embouchures, some have taken it as meaning Reinhart was saying there is a "right" way and a "wrong" way to interface with the mouthpiece and instrument. I don't think that was his intention, but rather to help folks find the right lip and mouthpiece placement that worked best for their particular physisogomy. Regrettably, too few brass teachers seem to have understood this over the years. The exception to the rule - Carmine Caruso, who taught all sorts of brass players in NYC from the '40's through the '80's, and who developed a set of exercises that maximize coordination and strength without messing with your set-up--assuming you have a functional set-up in the first place. Carmine always proclaimed that there had been students he could not help, but that he'd never hurt any. No mean feat in brassland!
depends ... ( from someone who plays piano , bass , gtr , trumpet , etc )
i started on piano at age 6 , ... trumpet at age 8-9 ... so i could already read the treble clef a bit ...
so by highschool , at age 16 , i'd been at it about 8 years ...
i always practiced my piano every day , from a 1/2 hr , up to 3-4 hours preparing for recitals/concerts/solo contests . On Trumpet , i didn't practice quite as much , i had decent tone and read music well , so it came fairly easy . !?
so ... have you ever played a Brass instrument .. ?? there are many many muscles that need developed , from your mouth to your diaphragm .. ! would you play 'slide or valve' trombone .. ? slide requires memorizing all those note positions , valves requires learning all the note fingers with just 3 valves ...
i'd guess you can read the bass clef ... that being the case , you'd be concentrating more on the actual mechanics of the instrument ... how long would that take .. ?? very hard to say ... i was 1st chair trumpet in highschool ... we had a good trumpet section ,... then the band director asked if i could try to switch to French Horn ... after a couple weeks of sounding like a dying moose , i was 1st chair ... but it was going from 1 brass instrument to another .. !
i'd think , if you read well , get started with the proper techniques ( embouchure ) , you could be ready for short playing times in a couple months ... if you push the horn on lips toooooo hard , they will tire quickly and hurt ... if you properly use your diaphragm , as in singing , everything will work better .. ! Having done it both ways , i speak from experience ...
i would try to rent or borrow a horn to start with ... just in case things don't work out .. !?
just my 2-3 cents ...
i started on piano at age 6 , ... trumpet at age 8-9 ... so i could already read the treble clef a bit ...
so by highschool , at age 16 , i'd been at it about 8 years ...
i always practiced my piano every day , from a 1/2 hr , up to 3-4 hours preparing for recitals/concerts/solo contests . On Trumpet , i didn't practice quite as much , i had decent tone and read music well , so it came fairly easy . !?
so ... have you ever played a Brass instrument .. ?? there are many many muscles that need developed , from your mouth to your diaphragm .. ! would you play 'slide or valve' trombone .. ? slide requires memorizing all those note positions , valves requires learning all the note fingers with just 3 valves ...
i'd guess you can read the bass clef ... that being the case , you'd be concentrating more on the actual mechanics of the instrument ... how long would that take .. ?? very hard to say ... i was 1st chair trumpet in highschool ... we had a good trumpet section ,... then the band director asked if i could try to switch to French Horn ... after a couple weeks of sounding like a dying moose , i was 1st chair ... but it was going from 1 brass instrument to another .. !
i'd think , if you read well , get started with the proper techniques ( embouchure ) , you could be ready for short playing times in a couple months ... if you push the horn on lips toooooo hard , they will tire quickly and hurt ... if you properly use your diaphragm , as in singing , everything will work better .. ! Having done it both ways , i speak from experience ...
i would try to rent or borrow a horn to start with ... just in case things don't work out .. !?
just my 2-3 cents ...
