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Absolutely buried at outdoor gig
- Thread starter burgerdj
- Start date
If your WA12 is a 112 combo, you don't have enough rig for the gig. I use an Eden EX-112 (handles 300-watts rms) for small venues and only use a 225-watt amp (Eden TN-226) with it because that's all that's needed for small venues. I used two of them with an 800-watt Eden amp (400-watts per channel into 4Ω or bridged at 800-watts into 8Ω) for medium gigs. Could probably have used that same set up for large gigs too, but chose to use my DNS-410 cab for large venues, outdoor venues, and music festivals.
After I got accepted to the DNA Endorsing artist group in 2019, I bought a DNS-210 cab that handles 700-watts rms and can use that for all my indoor gigs. I drive it with one of my 800-watt amps and it's an exceptionally loud and clear cab, so I don't need to roll in my 410 cab. Plus it has all the sonic characteristics of my DNS-410 cab, which I love. I still usually take that smaller Eden set-up to small venues like brewpubs though because it sounds really good and I can carry amp, cab, bass, and gig bag in or out in one trip. I sit it on a chair. For indoor medium and large venues I bring along my my DNS-210 cab along with an amp stand, which holds it up nicely off the floor and tilts it back at 45° making it easier to hear on stage.
I don't use any of that smaller gear for outdoor venues. Outdoor venues, since they are not entirely enclosed, don't have nearly the amount of reflective surfaces to bounce your sound around inside of. So they require a lot more power with more speakers. I always use my DNS-410 cab outdoors. Since you were getting no help from the FOH at that gig, you really needed to have an amp and cab that could fill that open space - a 112 is not the answer to that challenge. At the very least you'd need an additional 112 cab to give you a 212 set-up and that might not be enough in large open areas. But with a 212 setup, you can usually at least hear yourself on stage
Got a question for your on your WA12 combo. Is that a Warwick combo? I see Warwick cabs rated at 300-watts handling power, but don't see any Warwick 112 combos that are anywhere close to being 300-watts, 112 combo. Also, most combos (not all) list the power that they can put out with a 4Ω load and you have to plug in another 8Ω cab to get that full power. Using industry standard parallel connections, running two 8Ω cabs puts a 4Ω load on the amp allowing it to access its full rated power.
A 300-watt into 4Ω amp would only put out about 150 to perhaps 200-watts rms using its internal speaker. You have to add another speaker to get full power out of it. There are a few companies like Eden who use a 4Ω speaker in their combo to get full power as-is. However, if you hook up another cab to it, it disables the internal speaker and only uses the one you hooked up - not very verstile.
As you already heard, a sub-woofer is not going to give you much help over most of the frequencies you play. Typically they handle 200Hz or less, down to about 20Hz and you play a LOT of frequencies above that. It might help a little but it's not going to make the difference when playing outdoors. As far as hearing your bass goes, if the bass is not in the PA or FOH, it's not going to be in the monitors, and the monitors won't help you hear yourself. You'll hear the rest of the band fine, but not your bass. Usually a sound technician that will not put the bass in the monitors or the FOH system excludes the bass because they are worried about the bass frequencies damaging their speakers.
So, if you expect to do a number of outdoor gigs, you'll be best served by at least getting an extension cab to plug into your combo (presuming it does that) and I'd honestly suggest you up your amp power to ~500-watts or more rms into 4Ω. 300-watts would be fine for small and medium venues and a 500-watt into 4Ω amp will give you somewhere between a minimum of 250-watts up to a bit over 300-watts. But for large and outdoor venues, you're much better off with at least 500-watts and at least a 2x112 set-up. A 410 set-up is better yet.
I'd rather have too much and turn down than not have enough and struggle. Modern gear makes it possible to do this without breaking one's back.
Jazzdogg
Less barking, more wagging!
Your post is a great example of why I value the variable high-pass filter: when FOH uses sub-woofers indiscriminately, and everything on stage is buried in LF mush, I roll back the lowest frequencies produced by my amp, including its DI. FOH can't amplify a signal I don't send.
Of course, these days FOH buries us in bass drum, too, and my HPF won't prevent the bass drum from being overamplified.
Turn down the subs.
JeezyMcNuggles
Inactive
- Feb 23, 2018
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You preferably want to put your woofers dead center. But, not being on a stage, you should really invest in another sub, and set up a cardioid array. That way, you can control the bass that goes back on you guys. Keep the woofer pushing forward, and not backward. Because low end pushes in a sphere. It's omni directional from around 200hz on down. The lower the note, the harder it is to direct. That's why you really only hear woofiness from behind your tops. A cardioid set up cancels out the back of the speaker. Like a cardioid mic, that rejects sound from the back.
But, stick your woofers on one side of the set up, if you aren't going to place them centered.
i may have actually kept the 15" WA, it was generally okay. as you say, with that single handle on top it was extremely awkward to hoist and carry up stairs, through doorways, etc. i finally said the hell with it.
From the OP, this sounds like a learning curve is needed.
I dont think you just rock up with extra cabs and its all ok. If it is, then bonus, but if not, you've done your gig no favours.
You need enough sound to cover the stage because people need to hear you.
Ears are one method, but you all need them ..with appropriate mix ..if you split between mix and wedges, you still need that mix.
The other big thing..amongst so many things you need to get right is set up to hear yourself on the stage and just let the p.a distribute that. Thats why its called sound reinforcement.
So, next time...if you dont do anything else...just play to hear everything which is a discipline in itself.
Sounds like you need a front soundman to work with on these shows. You really need feedback on what the sound is like outfront..which is the whole deal. imv
I dont think you just rock up with extra cabs and its all ok. If it is, then bonus, but if not, you've done your gig no favours.
You need enough sound to cover the stage because people need to hear you.
Ears are one method, but you all need them ..with appropriate mix ..if you split between mix and wedges, you still need that mix.
The other big thing..amongst so many things you need to get right is set up to hear yourself on the stage and just let the p.a distribute that. Thats why its called sound reinforcement.
So, next time...if you dont do anything else...just play to hear everything which is a discipline in itself.
Sounds like you need a front soundman to work with on these shows. You really need feedback on what the sound is like outfront..which is the whole deal. imv
Some of you are greatly oversimplifying the problem. Low frequencies are assumed to be omnidirectional. That means the sound coming from a sub will radiate equally in all directions. Another important thing to understand is SPL from a point source drops off at a rate of 6dB for each doubling of distance.
I don't know if the subwoofer model was mentioned. Let's assume something like a JBL PRX915 which is rated at 127dB continuous a 1m.
Let's assume red is 1m at 127dB
blue is 2m at 121dB
green is 4m at 115dB
purple is 8m at 109dB
Chances are the bass player is going to be closer to the 2m circle and the audience will be at approximately the 4m and 8m circles. At this distances the bass player will hear the sub at 121 dB, which is 6-12dB louder than what audience hears
Meanwhile, the mains will tend to shoot most of their sound out in beams, The bass player may hear a bit of the low mids, but he/she will not hear any mids or higher. I have added a couple of cabs with 90 degree horns.
From the bass player's position this may sound like a rumbly mess...as if the bass is extremely hyped in the sub. But it may sound perfectly balanced to the audience.
I don't know if the subwoofer model was mentioned. Let's assume something like a JBL PRX915 which is rated at 127dB continuous a 1m.
Let's assume red is 1m at 127dB
blue is 2m at 121dB
green is 4m at 115dB
purple is 8m at 109dB
Chances are the bass player is going to be closer to the 2m circle and the audience will be at approximately the 4m and 8m circles. At this distances the bass player will hear the sub at 121 dB, which is 6-12dB louder than what audience hears
Meanwhile, the mains will tend to shoot most of their sound out in beams, The bass player may hear a bit of the low mids, but he/she will not hear any mids or higher. I have added a couple of cabs with 90 degree horns.
From the bass player's position this may sound like a rumbly mess...as if the bass is extremely hyped in the sub. But it may sound perfectly balanced to the audience.
This. I've come to realise that the purpose of a subwoofer is to put back the low end frequencies lost by putting the main "full range" speakers up on poles. (I recall Bill Fitsmaurice mentioning that you can lose up to -12db of low end in an open space!).
Subwoofers are not designed to "add more bass". They simply form part of a full range system. If you want more bass, turn up the bass guitar channel or eq it.
QSC have a good guide for calibrating a sub with tops here. A simple RTA app on your phone will do.
Setting Subwoofer Level correctly in your PA System - Live Sound (qsc.com)
I run a BA 110 on a stand through a pa with old school wedges and it can b deafening. Something seriously wrong the bands entire setup. Also, are you a stadium band...if not what'you need subs for...awful things and totally uneccessary unless ur doing large concert halls
The problems don't all go away by adding power or volume. Many years ago when we were setting up for a small gig with just a vocal PA the drummer suggested that I set my volume to match the kick drum level. Anymore than that is too loud. He was right. The band should be able to work to the limitations of the venue and the equipment. I wish I had a dollar for every time the PA operator loaded up the vocal mics with heaps of bass because it sounds sexy. I'd always have to ask them to back it off so that we sound natural. Learning to balance band instruments to the occasion can be a political nightmare. The audience will most likely respond to a well balanced performance even if it's not at high volume. Disciplined sound management is not a given and sometimes it's never learned. If the players ignore the fact that there is a low volume limitation brought about by equipment limitations there will not be a balanced performance and that's counterproductive to the very idea of a band.
I had an interesting experience recently. Unfortunately, we don't have a lot of gigs this year, but I can't wait to confirm my findings soon.
It was an open-air event and FOH was powerful, so lows and subs from FOH were heard and felt on the stage. I used my Mesa D-800+ through an old Peavey Black Widow 1x15" cabinet. It was a loaned cabinet so I didn't want to stress it too much. I set the hi-pass filter to around noon and I got an interesting result. I got much cleaner low-end than with hi-pass filter off. I assume it has to do with the phase cancelations, that happen when lows from my stage gig interfere with the lows coming from FOH. Now, with the hi-pass filter set to noon (around 90Hz I think), the were less interference and my stage rig seemed more powerful.
I could hear myself better, and I felt the bass clearly, which isn't always the case.
For the record, my sound relies on a lot of low end, I use octavers and synths, so your experience may differ.
It was an open-air event and FOH was powerful, so lows and subs from FOH were heard and felt on the stage. I used my Mesa D-800+ through an old Peavey Black Widow 1x15" cabinet. It was a loaned cabinet so I didn't want to stress it too much. I set the hi-pass filter to around noon and I got an interesting result. I got much cleaner low-end than with hi-pass filter off. I assume it has to do with the phase cancelations, that happen when lows from my stage gig interfere with the lows coming from FOH. Now, with the hi-pass filter set to noon (around 90Hz I think), the were less interference and my stage rig seemed more powerful.
I could hear myself better, and I felt the bass clearly, which isn't always the case.
For the record, my sound relies on a lot of low end, I use octavers and synths, so your experience may differ.
Salud!
When I have similar problems it's usually with 15" cabs and small-ish heads (100-200W). In those cases, I lower the bass and raise mids. When I bring my cab, either the 112 or 210, with my 350W MarkBass head, there is no issue.
When I have similar problems it's usually with 15" cabs and small-ish heads (100-200W). In those cases, I lower the bass and raise mids. When I bring my cab, either the 112 or 210, with my 350W MarkBass head, there is no issue.
Exactly, sorry I didn't see this before replying myself. Not exactly my tone, but great in a busy band context.
Sounds similar to my experience in a former band. We hired two sound guys. Everything sounded clear the first few gigs. Then they added subwoofers and more speakers and suddenly everything sounded like mud onstage. When I told the sounds guys, their response was "Yeah, but everything sounds great out front." 
Bigger rig. The sub is not for monitoring purposes. If you had a personal monitor mix you could send your bass signal through it to help with a smaller rig.
I'm guessing no one is hiring you to do sound for them? My band, who admittedly does a significant portion of our shows outside, runs 4 2x18 subs at almost every show. We have a permanent sound guy and he knows what he is doing and our sound is awesome. Last week we did a major fair in my area where sound was provided, he ran 4 2x18 subs and our sound was great. Usually, indoors we run 2 of the subs, but in a larger room we will run all 4. Subs are not the enemy or the problem, sound people who think they know what they are doing are the problem.
Hahaha, that is exactly the same our sound guy told us. Then, he walked to the bar to get a refill LOL.
That cab is fine for a monitor as long as you put it on a stand so the speaker is closer to your ears. I dont think the band would hear you though unless you were also coming through the stage monitors. I would bring a second cabinet or get a larger one. The vertical 212 format made by alot of cab makers is a great choice here. Ive got a subway 212 & its been enough for every gig ive played with or without front of house support. I also play through a subway 115&112 stack which is equally glorious. I am pushing 800 watts though.
