Absolutely buried at outdoor gig

[Mike Caldwell]

Lots of variables could have been in play, in no certain order.....
- was the PA properly set up, eq'd?
- was an actual mix of sorts put together via the PA?
- To much low end no mids on the bass tone?
- Overall stage volume too loud thinking it needed to be for outdoors.....PA system is for that.
- Getting a bigger rig for outdoors may not be the best thing for the audience.....

 

[pfschim]

I have a Walkabout and really love it, but it is kind of limited .. even into the 4ohm combo. As @agedhorse said, it's not terribly efficient and the 1x12 driver is likely mechanically limited to far less than the 300w that the WA can honestly produce. That's why Mesa/Agedhorse designed the WD800 and the Subway stuff. More overall power, keeping the excellent WA character, and cabs that are more efficient than the passive radiator Scout designs.

The OP will definitely get more out of the WA amp through bigger, more efficient multi-driver cabs like Subway, Bergantino, Barefaced etc, but he may also run into the inherently limited clean power range of the WA too.

For my part, when I can use the WA, I always try to do that, but use a Berg CN212 or NV212t. When I can't, and outdoor spaces are often one of those situations, then the WD800 does the job exceptionally well.

As has already been said ... gotta have enough rig for the gig. And the OP needs to think about if/how he can get into the PA just to get more coverage in larger/outdoor spaces. He did not really say how much PA his band has to work with other than they just added a sub.

 

[burgerdj]

I have a Walkabout and really love it, but it is kind of limited .. even into the 4ohm combo. As @agedhorse said, it's not terribly efficient and the 1x12 driver is likely mechanically limited to far less than the 300w that the WA can honestly produce. That's why Mesa/Agedhorse designed the WD800 and the Subway stuff. More overall power, keeping the excellent WA character, and cabs that are more efficient than the passive radiator Scout designs.

The OP will definitely get more out of the WA amp through bigger, more efficient multi-driver cabs like Subway, Bergantino, Barefaced etc, but he may also run into the inherently limited clean power range of the WA too.

For my part, when I can use the WA, I always try to do that, but use a Berg CN212 or NV212t. When I can't, and outdoor spaces are often one of those situations, then the WD800 does the job exceptionally well.

As has already been said ... gotta have enough rig for the gig. And the OP needs to think about if/how he can get into the PA just to get more coverage in larger/outdoor spaces. He did not really say how much PA his band has to work with other than they just added a sub.

Thanks! Yes, we have a solid PA with powered mains and monitors. Mixing is done via some fancy phone app. My apprehension was from adding the sub (for the first time) without much time to get it dialed in.

I appreciate the work @agedhorse brought to the subway line and I think I'm gonna be in the market for some cabs soon. We have several more outdoor gigs through the summer and fall - including similar field circumstances.

 

[Wasnex]

Not enough rig for the gig. Sometimes the only thing you can do is smile and act like everything is perfect.

Ideally you would have a thorough sound check before the show, so you have a chance to make adjustments. When possible at the end of sound check, I push the system 6-10dB louder than the mix will be run for the show. This is primarily to assess gain-before-feedback, but it can also reveal other potential problems such as what you experienced.

I would try collocating the bass cab with the sub. Flip the polarity on the DI to see polarity which is best. The idea here is to try and get the sub and your cab to work together. Dial down the lows in you amp and aim it at your head. This is so the amp can deliver more mids to your ears, sinch the sub is probably already delivering more than enough lows. Essentially you are approximating a biamp system with your rig carrying the high and mids.

I would also try getting as much distance as possible between the bass cab and sub. If the sub is right in front of you, it will seem significantly louder than if it is on the other side of the band. SPL drops off at about 6dB for each doubling of distance.

I don't generally like bass in the monitors. However if the monitors can handle bass you can certainly try it. Sometimes it sounds great, but more often it seems to set up a fight with the bass amp. You can tell the bass is louder, but it has a hallow/phasey quality that makes it hard to hear once others start playing.

This problem may be mitigated by adjusting where you are standing in relation to both sound sources. Ideally you want your ears to be at the mid point between the acoustic centers of each sound source. The idea is for the sound from each speaker to hit your ears at the exact same time and in perfect phase alignment. Unfortunately unless your rig and monitors use the same exact type of cabs, their phase and group delay curves are going to be different...meaning they will fight to some degree at certain low frequencies.

If the monitors cannot handle bass, you may be still be able use them to add some clarity by adding an HPF to the monitor. It's the old biamp simulation trick again, except this time your rig is carrying the lows.

When I am running sound I typically apply a 100hz HPF to all monitors. In venues with bad acoustics I may push the HPF higher. Applying the HPF can help reduce how much the monitors fight with your rig.

Keep in mind you may be dealing with interactions between your amp, the monitors, and the sub(s). It's a complex situation and the trick is to find a combination of sound sources that allow you to hear well enough to do the job. Sometimes the best solution can be to turn your amp down.

 

[gstaats]

Outdoors is much more challenging to sound full - even as just a rock/ indie band. We tested our pa outdoors and quickly realized we needed subs. We're not bass heavy - but it's unrealistic to expect a couple modest mains to sound full Outdoors. We got a smoking deal on (2) ev ekx 18sp subs and a couple powered tops. The subs do what the tops cannot. We're not running huge outdoor gigs - but we would sound super thin without the subs.

My rig is up to the task for monitoring. A mesa tt-800 head and 2x barefaced big baby cabs. You can hear and feel it.

 

[sawzalot]

Could have been the relative positions of the bass amp and subwoofer were causing comb filtering and canceling out frequencies that you wanted to hear. Could also be you just didn't have enough power in the PA or your bass amp. Outdoors is really unforgiving for low frequencies. There's just no substitute for having enough rig for the gig sometimes.

 

[KohanMike]

+1. I've got this exact rig; great and lightweight. Too bad Carvin isn't still making them.

Compact, powerful. I also use a Powkey powerbank to run them for hours.

 

[gstaats]

Yesterday my band played a casual outdoor gig at a beautiful property with an expansive yard. We brought our PA and I was running my little walk about for monitoring purposes. We literally played on the ground with no riser whatsoever. This was also our first gig with our new powered subwoofer.

our opening acoustic songs sounded just fine from our "Stage" but once things got going, I absolutely could not hear anything out of my amp and only the muffled subwoofer across the way. By default we keep our monitors pretty straightforward without any bass coming through.

I had my amp on a tilted stand, gain and volume at appropriate levels. I tried standing close and away by about 15'. Man, it was tough and muscle memory was clutch over the next two hours.

I think I'm going to need to augment my rig, but I would love to get some tips from you folks who have been in similar situations. Any recommendations on monitor mixing or sub placement?

Just curious - anything crazy on the mixer that may have thrown things off? (excessive HPF, compression, gating, EQ or limiting? ) Or - the inverse - if not using any of those tools tool tame the inevitable spikes and excessive dynamic range, were things turned down to protect gear?

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Could have been the relative positions of the bass amp and subwoofer were causing comb filtering and canceling out frequencies that you wanted to hear. Could also be you just didn't have enough power in the PA or your bass amp. Outdoors is really unforgiving for low frequencies. There's just no substitute for having enough rig for the gig sometimes.

That's what I was thinking. I no longer have it, but I used a Walkabout in an NFL stadium and of course it didn't fill the stadium with bass, but I had no problem hearing myself using it for monitoring and no walls behind it.

 

[denton57]

Did you say you were relying mostly on the sub? Were you not running through the mains? We set our crossover at 100hz for both the sun and mains. The mains in my case are carrying the bass with some low end support for the lows from the sub. I do use an amp for my monitor but I agree about bass in the monitors…not good IME. Last gig (with new powered monitors) caused all kinds of chorus effect and really was tough to overcome. We tried new monitors and our new powered sub on the same gig with very little soundcheck so we deserved what we got, but the new monitors really jacked with what was a good stage sound because we didn't EQ them correctly and they were too loud. Subsequent band practice allowed us to really narrow down the issues and cause of confusion on the gig.

 

[burgerdj]

That's what I was thinking. I no longer have it, but I used a Walkabout in an NFL stadium and of course it didn't fill the stadium with bass, but I had no problem hearing myself using it for monitoring and no walls behind it.

Comb filtering is certainly possible. There were times when I struggled to hear anything coming from the amp. We've got another outdoor coming up with a slightly more forgiving arrangement. I'll give my WA another shot, but seriously thinking about a larger rig for this outdoor work that is coming our way

 

[mindwell]

This is the box I drag out for the yearly outdoor gig. I can hear me and so can everyone else for several miles.

 

[bobdabilder]

I would absolutely add more speaker area. Gk 4x10. Skip the mesa stuff.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Get a stack, Jack.
View attachment 5149127
Doesn't have to be the biggest, most expensive thing out there. Doesn't even have to match! If it sounds good, it is good...
I use this pairing for Salsa dances without PA support and the master volume doesn't go beyond 9 o'clock. If the latest batch of recordings is anything to go by, (made with a Zoom at the far end of the dance floor) it's covering the whole area, no problem.
LOL - it probably helps a lot that we have no guitarist! (There are two percussionists, though. And 3 horns. And 150 dancers!)

Sometimes I use a smaller amp and incorporate some PA support with my own gear. I find the key there is to have good speakers that can take a bit of a pounding, then exercise common sense and don't pound them too too hard. (QSC K series or equivalent can deal - cheaper stuff, I wouldn't...)
Subwoofers are for young people's tailbones and powered 10s & 12s are for intelligibility which does include bass guitar IME.
For this yard party with an oldies/rockabilly group, I used just the one bass cab with a 50W tube amp and let the powered speakers deliver maybe half of the bass guitar to the audience. (I walked out front a bit & could hear it just enough in my mains.)
That tube amp is a little more potent driving two cabs at 4Ω. But, between my rig, the PA and the drum set, I was already hauling enough **** for this job.
View attachment 5149139

Hahahahahahaha! That guy is hired

 

[Marko 1]

...but seriously thinking about a larger rig for this outdoor work that is coming our way

I don't have any transportation issues, not sure your situation,

but the smallest rig I'll use anymore (or would recommend) is a 4x10, and that's for the smallest rooms because it's not very tall like a 2x15, (which I'll use when it doesn't look too big).

I recently trimmed this rig by using a 3-space shallow rack case for the head, looks cleaner.

 

[MarkA]

Don't know if you're aware of it, Andy, but for anyone interested, there was a documentary made about Anvil:

Don't remember how I came across it, but I remember staying up late, one night years ago, to watch it and being touched by it. Might be worth a (in my case, another) view.

...Even though I didn't often mix these kinds of shows, there was one memorable act that I did a short tour with, an act that really established the foundation that metal was built on. This was the band Anvil, and IMO they were really quite good but were simply about 5 years too early to achieve the success that Metallica (who credits Anvil as the precursor of the genre) achieved...

 

[agedhorse]

Don't know if you're aware of it, Andy, but for anyone interested, there was a documentary made about Anvil:

Don't remember how I came across it, but I remember staying up late, one night years ago, to watch it and being touched by it. Might be worth a (in my case, another) view.

I handled the audio for part of that film tour (film audio plus band audio), still great guys. That's the last time I worked with them. The movie is pretty good.

 

[DJ Bebop]

Ha - yeah, got that part! More curious about setting up of the live sound specifically placement of the subwoofer in relationship to where I am set up. We often play outdoors with and without FOH but these parameters kind of threw us for a bit of a loop.

How many piece band?
What do you have going through the sub?
Do you need a sub for what you are doing?

 

[Monkey]

It's so frustrating to have a great gig outdoors and not have the firepower to enjoy it. I don't play outdoors frequently anymore, but keep a rig for the purpose.

This is what I use for big outdoor (usually reggae) gigs: 2 fEarful 12/6s with Markbass Little Mark III (500 watts) or Ninja (1000 watts). One cab is fine for outdoor jazz or quieter gigs.

Last year, I played a reggae gig at a very nice outdoor event venue with a quality sound system and good sound-folk. I decided to only bring one cab and put it on a stand. It was OK, but I couldn't hear that well, even though I could hear the thump of the subs. I was also asked to turn up on stage by bandmates. I brought the whole rig the previous year at that venue and wondered if it was overkill. It wasn't….

 

[dbsfgyd1]

Yesterday my band played a casual outdoor gig at a beautiful property with an expansive yard. We brought our PA and I was running my little walk about for monitoring purposes. We literally played on the ground with no riser whatsoever. This was also our first gig with our new powered subwoofer.

our opening acoustic songs sounded just fine from our "Stage" but once things got going, I absolutely could not hear anything out of my amp and only the muffled subwoofer across the way. By default we keep our monitors pretty straightforward without any bass coming through.

I had my amp on a tilted stand, gain and volume at appropriate levels. I tried standing close and away by about 15'. Man, it was tough and muscle memory was clutch over the next two hours.

I think I'm going to need to augment my rig, but I would love to get some tips from you folks who have been in similar situations. Any recommendations on monitor mixing or sub placement?

If you aren't used to playing outdoors, it can be a bit of a shock. Unless you are doing more outdoor gigs where there are no walls, or a stage to couple too, and prior to this gig, you've not have a problem, I wouldn't bother supplementing your rig.

I will say this, I do own a 2nd cab for such gigs. It makes a big difference.