Absolutely buried at outdoor gig

[burgerdj]

I'm guessing no one is hiring you to do sound for them? My band, who admittedly does a significant portion of our shows outside, runs 4 2x18 subs at almost every show. We have a permanent sound guy and he knows what he is doing and our sound is awesome. Last week we did a major fair in my area where sound was provided, he ran 4 2x18 subs and our sound was great. Usually, indoors we run 2 of the subs, but in a larger room we will run all 4. Subs are not the enemy or the problem, sound people who think they know what they are doing are the problem.

Uh, no. We're a band, not a live sound company. Our scene is pretty DIY and ranges from small bar gigs to outdoor parties to the occasional festival (which does have pro sound). We're always working to improve our live sound and accommodate an increasing number and variety of musicians. This particular gig introduced two new variables (new sub, no stage/huge field) that made the live sound and monitoring a challenge - thus my request to the TB brain trust for help.

 

[Slevage]

Does your band have the capability of playing "balanced" (excluding vocals) if the PA is turned off?

If you can accomplish that, then add in the vocals, sax?, other instruments, monitors only.

Then use the FOH to reinforce your sound. Unity gain is very important. Get that as close to
"correct" before pushing up the sliders.

 

[Marko 1]

I've experienced Subs plenty... in the past one band (I didn't control) used two 18" at every gig (passive system, crossover at 100hz via the power amp), mostly indoors, bars, and kind of a loud band.

Behind the Subs it never sounded like it did in front of them.

This band I don't use Subs indoors, but I used two Subs the other day (powered, crossed at 90hz) car show outdoors,

both were side-by-side on my side of the stage. The PA was cranked up pretty loud because I had to project quite a distance to where the people were gathered.

The Subs were NOT doing much-if-anything to affect the stage sound.

During breaks with break music, I'd have to walk in front of them to hear how nice they sounded, and again, it was NOT projecting back on the stage like it was in front of them, not even close.

I see the scientific graphs, and I can't refute the laws of physics, but that just never translated to my real-life experience.

 

[Biggbass]

Outdoor gigs are why they made SVTs and Acoustic 360's.

 

[Bonecat]

We're doing a fair number of outdoor shows this summer. I often go ampless, feeding my Bergantino Super Pre direct to FOH. Guitars are direct from their amps. Drums are mic'd. We're also all on IEMs. If we're on a big stage, I'll bring my amp as our drummer likes to feel the bass. Seems to work…

 

[agedhorse]

This. I've come to realise that the purpose of a subwoofer is to put back the low end frequencies lost by putting the main "full range" speakers up on poles. (I recall Bill Fitsmaurice mentioning that you can lose up to -12db of low end in an open space!).

Subwoofers are not designed to "add more bass". They simply form part of a full range system. If you want more bass, turn up the bass guitar channel or eq it.

QSC have a good guide for calibrating a sub with tops here. A simple RTA app on your phone will do.

Setting Subwoofer Level correctly in your PA System - Live Sound (qsc.com)

The reason for subs is that most top cabinets can not reproduce low frequencies at the necessary (or desired) levels and will generate distortion if you try. Placing them on pole's isn't the primary cause.

I run a BA 110 on a stand through a pa with old school wedges and it can b deafening. Something seriously wrong the bands entire setup. Also, are you a stadium band...if not what'you need subs for...awful things and totally uneccessary unless ur doing large concert halls

Not true. Subs are a useful tool to sound full rather than deafening.

I've experienced Subs plenty... in the past one band (I didn't control) used two 18" at every gig (passive system, crossover at 100hz via the power amp), mostly indoors, bars, and kind of a loud band.

Behind the Subs it never sounded like it did in front of them.

This band I don't use Subs indoors, but I used two Subs the other day (powered, crossed at 90hz) car show outdoors,

both were side-by-side on my side of the stage. The PA was cranked up pretty loud because I had to project quite a distance to where the people were gathered.

The Subs were NOT doing much-if-anything to affect the stage sound.

During breaks with break music, I'd have to walk in front of them to hear how nice they sounded, and again, it was NOT projecting back on the stage like it was in front of them, not even close.

I see the scientific graphs, and I can't refute the laws of physics, but that just never translated to my real-life experience.

Correct, I have mentioned earlier that "in theory" and "in practice" can be very different. Since there is some phase shift in the leakage signal behind the subs, this can cancel with the signal from the front that wraps around resulting in some cancellation behind. There is also attenuation if the wrapped signal. In practice, the signal behind is roughly 6dB-9dB lower than at the front in the bandpass range.

 

[tvbop]

Thing is subs are their to punch the lower mids and not bass whatever that is.....Just wish most sound dudes understood this instead of thinking they are there to increase the bass output...they ain't and when that happens it all goes to the wall...hear it time and time again at live shows.

 

[BassTank84]

HPF for the sub? Not sure if that would help.

 

[tvbop]

Not true. Subs are a useful tool to sound full rather than deafening.

Exactly. I only said awful cause 9/10 sound dudes havent a clue about how to eq them.

 

[agedhorse]

Thing is subs are there to punch the lower mids and not bass whatever that is.....Just wish most sound dudes understood this instead of thinking they are there to increase the bass output...they ain't and when that happens it all goes to the wall...hear it time and time again at live shows.

Subs have nothing to do with lower mids, most are crossed over below 100Hz.

HPF for the sub? Not sure if that would help.

Mist subs are high passed at about 25Hz-30Hz.

Exactly. I only said awful cause 9/10 sound dudes havent a clue about how to eq them.

Maybe at your level, at my level 9/10 understand completely how to eq and work with subs.

 

[climber]

I play a ton of gigs, inside and out. 14 in August alone! my statement to the band is "If YOU can't hear ME, then YOU are too loud!" 90% of the time I use a 1-12 Revsound cab with my Streamliner 900. the 10% of the time I need something else it's either a Revsound 2-10, or for small indoor gigs a Revsound 1-10T.

 

[tvbop]

Subs have nothing to do with lower mids, most are crossed over below 100Hz.
Mist subs are high passed at about 25Hz-30Hz.
Maybe at your level, at my level 9/10 understand completely how to eq and work with subs.

I know ur the expert around here...but all I'm hearing after paying 150 bucks is boom boom boom so go ahead crank those subs if that's what you think we all wanna hear. I'm old school, I like a nice balanced sound with a tight bass and crisp mid range. Trouble is because of this obsession with pumping the subs I no longer go to live gigs....There you go.

 

[agedhorse]

I know ur the expert around here...but all I'm hearing after paying 150 bucks is boom boom boom so go ahead crank those subs if that's what you think we all wanna hear. I'm old school, I like a nice balanced sound with a tight bass and crisp mid range. Trouble is because of this obsession with pumping the subs I no longer go to live gigs....There you go.

If you read my earlier posts, balanced use of subs is something that's a skill. "Obsession with pumping the subs" is not a sub issue, it's purely an issue with (typically) amateur sound guys.

 

[MarkA]

Does your band have the capability of playing "balanced" (excluding vocals) if the PA is turned off?

If you can accomplish that, then add in the vocals, sax?, other instruments, monitors only.

Then use the FOH to reinforce your sound. Unity gain is very important. Get that as close to
"correct" before pushing up the sliders.

Would you elaborate on what you mean by "unity gain," here?

I know what "unity gain" means in general (signal going out is at the same level as the signal coming in -- no net gain or attenuation) or when I'm using a pedal into an amp or recording. Here, I am reading it to mean that individual levels are set in the mixer so that the balance between instruments that the band has worked to achieve, sans PA, is maintained as the master faders are brought up. Is it that, something else, or that and something else (i.e. "Yes, but there's more to it.")?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Bob Quintano]

Yesterday my band played a casual outdoor gig at a beautiful property with an expansive yard. We brought our PA and I was running my little walk about for monitoring purposes. We literally played on the ground with no riser whatsoever. This was also our first gig with our new powered subwoofer.

our opening acoustic songs sounded just fine from our "Stage" but once things got going, I absolutely could not hear anything out of my amp and only the muffled subwoofer across the way. By default we keep our monitors pretty straightforward without any bass coming through.

I had my amp on a tilted stand, gain and volume at appropriate levels. I tried standing close and away by about 15'. Man, it was tough and muscle memory was clutch over the next two hours.

I think I'm going to need to augment my rig, but I would love to get some tips from you folks who have been in similar situations. Any recommendations on monitor mixing or sub placement?

Yesterday my band played a casual outdoor gig at a beautiful property with an expansive yard. We brought our PA and I was running my little walk about for monitoring purposes. We literally played on the ground with no riser whatsoever. This was also our first gig with our new powered subwoofer.

our opening acoustic songs sounded just fine from our "Stage" but once things got going, I absolutely could not hear anything out of my amp and only the muffled subwoofer across the way. By default we keep our monitors pretty straightforward without any bass coming through.

I had my amp on a tilted stand, gain and volume at appropriate levels. I tried standing close and away by about 15'. Man, it was tough and muscle memory was clutch over the next two hours.

I think I'm going to need to augment my rig, but I would love to get some tips from you folks who have been in similar situations. Any recommendations on monitor mixing or sub placement?

 

[gtirard]

"Obsession with pumping the subs" is not a sub issue, it's purely an issue with (typically) amateur sound guys.

Yes, but some of us seem to regret the recent trend, even on huge shows, to over-power the subs, not because the sound guy is amateur (obvioulsy), but maybe because it sounds more pleasant to younger ears. I'm sure these guys know what they are doing, but it's not my personal taste. I'm getting old.

 

[Bob Quintano]

I've have been in your exact situation. After much thought and experimentation and money wasted, the final solution: IN EAR MONITORS. Increased stage volume will just make you a pain in the ass. Your stage volume needs to be set for the audience, not for you. For you, in ears can give you any bass volume you desire. They will deliver exact audio of what your bass is putting out, every slight nuance (mistake). It will teach you to perform a lot cleaner. Your gonna love it. I use Alien Ears out of Florida. They are hands on and believe in customer service. Try it...you'll like it.

 

[Slevage]

Would you elaborate on what you mean by "unity gain," here?

I know what "unity gain" means in general (signal going out is at the same level as the signal coming in -- no net gain or attenuation) or when I'm using a pedal into an amp or recording. Here, I am reading it to mean that individual levels are set in the mixer so that the balance between instruments that the band has worked to achieve, sans PA, is maintained as the master faders are brought up. Is it that, something else, or that and something else (i.e. "Yes, but there's more to it.")?

Thanks in advance.

Unity gain is attainable by watching the clip/input lights of each channel. Though a better way is to send each channel, one at a time to the on board VU meter or LED R/L strip.
The mixing board has to "hear" each instrument as though they are playing/singing at the same level, before sound is sent out to the amplifiers and speakers.
Unity gain can be set without having anything connected to the output of the mixer.
Slight tweaking of the gain of each channel can be done as the band is playing, but if the gain pot of each channel has to be moved more than 1 notch either way, getting the band to sound balance in the FOH becomes more difficult.

 

[tvbop]

"Obsession with pumping the subs" is not a sub issue, it's purely an issue with (typically) amateur sound guys.

I've no idea what ur idea of a pro show is but I've been to some big outdoor festivals and sizeable indoor shows and we had to walk away from the mid ground it was so bad.....started to make us nauseous. Is it an age thing? If it is then I really pity pity younger people who think its all right.....

 

[gstaats]

I prefer a balanced tone. Subs are there just to do what the mains can't - reproduce lows at volume outside. The mains by themselves sound great. Outdoors, they simply aren't enough to carry much low end. My goal for sound is to sound natural - no over exaggerated low end... just enough...