Acme Users Unite!!!

[Johnny Crab]

Own a handtruck?

Riis

One of my favorite pieces of gear ESPECIALLY when one finds out the load in in 100 yard walk, up an elevator, and another 40 yard walk.

I've a convertible one(use vertical or convert to flatbed with 4 wheels), drummer has an aluminum one, band dislikes mine because it's "heavy"....I'm used to heavy gear so I don't care.
Link Removed

 

[Zooberwerx]

Yes, the XLR DI.
I've tried many settings on the DI level. I can get the power amp to clip.....so I backed it down from there.
It sounded bad, so I backed it off even more.

I can choose either pre or post EQ on both amps. Both sounded like they're overloading something somewhere?

I started with all EQ flat, and graphic EQ out of the signal chain.

Using the "tube" channel of the Mesa, I had the channel volume at 10pm and the master volume to set the overall volume (which wasn't loud at all).

I'm definitely overloading something. Where and why?

I'm going to try my ART tube preamp....just for giggles.


I can't try the FX send until I get the proper cables.
I could send the FX send to my mixer and my mixer to the amp....but I really wanted to remove as much from the set up while testing.

Like I said, I can plug the Mesa and GK into the cabs, utilizing their amplifiers, and it sounds good.

It will be interesting to hear how the ART works out. I had one which worked well with my CA-6. I sold it and purchased a Presonus Studio Channel which I like even better.

As I mentioned, phone calls to Mesa and GK may be in order. Any users' forums would be helpful, as well. Both manuals address sending DI signals to mixing consoles but neither discuss driving external power amps which I find curious. We've more than likely overlooked some critical detail but, then again, I learn something new everyday.

Riis

 

[JoshuaTSP]

Okay, just tried it with the ART.

It worked, but only when I'm using one side of the power amp.
Bridged still doesn't sound right?

I also tried the 700RB's DI again, and it worked using one side of the amp. go figure?
(it doesn't sound as good as the 700RB and 2x15 IMO)

Either way, the Mesa alone hooked up to both cabs sounds the best and is the loudest.

I'm going to give the Mesa/Acme combo a shot for a while and see how it works out.

 

[Zooberwerx]

Okay, just tried it with the ART.

It worked, but only when I'm using one side of the power amp.
Bridged still doesn't sound right?

I also tried the 700RB's DI again, and it worked using one side of the amp. go figure?
(it doesn't sound as good as the 700RB and 2x15 IMO)

Either way, the Mesa alone hooked up to both cabs sounds the best and is the loudest.

I'm going to give the Mesa/Acme combo a shot for a while and see how it works out.

Okay, so now matter what preamp you use, the power amp does not function as anticipated in bridged mono, correct? Refresh my memory...what power amp are you using?

Riis

 

[JoshuaTSP]

Correct.

It's an older model Crown XLS 402.
It does not look like the ones being sold right now.
It does not have a stereo/bridged switch.

 

[Zooberwerx]

Correct.

It's an older model Crown XLS 402.
It does not look like the ones being sold right now.
It does not have a stereo/bridged switch.

Is it this model described here?

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

If so, you have to do some additional cabling modifications for bridged mono applications, including:

*A "Y" XLR signal cable from your preamp (or mixing console) with the polarity reversed on the Channel 2 limb. Diagram 2.10 demonstrates the proper configuration.

*The Speakon connector (amp end) must be re-wired for bridged mono....black conductor connected to +1, white conductor connected to +2 (refer diagram 2.12). Normal stereo connections are +1, -1 for each channel. A Speakon wired in bridged mono can be used only for bridged mono; it will not work in stereo or parallel mono applications. An easier method would be to remove the amp-end Speakon and add a conventional banana plug. This gives you the latitude to utilize either the stereo or bridged mono installations via the binding posts located the right. I do this with my CA-6 as it has only binding posts.

Riis

 

[JoshuaTSP]

Yep that's it.

Ah....so I was hooking up the power amp input signal wrong! :doh:

I'm using a Banana (amp end) to 1/4" (speaker end) speaker cable.

So really, all I need to do is split my signal from my DI?

For now it would probably be easier to DI the amp to the mixer and send my signal to my cab that way? (since the mixer is already outputing to the power amp in stereo)

Thanks for the HELP!!!!!!

 

[Zooberwerx]

Yep that's it.

Ah....so I was hooking up the power amp input signal wrong! :doh:

I'm using a Banana (amp end) to 1/4" (speaker end) speaker cable.

So really, all I need to do is split my signal from my DI?

For now it would probably be easier to DI the amp to the mixer and send my signal to my cab that way? (since the mixer is already outputing to the power amp in stereo)

Thanks for the HELP!!!!!!

Mystery solved...maybe. Mini-rant: I have a strong dislike for a handful of these newer "budget conscious" bare-bones amplifiers. They work well in normal garden-variety type applications but try something out of the ordinary (and since when is bridged mono "out of the ordinary?) and it require a cabling scheme which rivals that of the FIOS network. Another reason I like my QSC RMX gear: DIP switches which can be tweaked almost on the fly...provided I have my reading glasses and a jeweler's screwdriver!

There's no reason you can't use your console as an intermediary provided you aim for unity gain structure. Use the solo / PFL feature to set the trim and you should be okay. Keep in mind that the amp will still be accepting two stereo inputs and not a bridged mono input. This can only be accomplished via the addition of the aforementioned inverted Y cable...sorry! As it stands, in stereo mode, the 402 will only be pushing 260 watts per side / cabinet 8 ohm so you're not gaining any ground in the power dept. OTOH, we're looking to see if the set-up works in the first place. Once that's been satisfied, you can concentrate on obtaining the Y cable in question. Crown may be able to lend a hand or point you in the right direction.

Riis

 

[JoshuaTSP]

thanks again.



Yeah, after doing research on power amps......the Crown XLS really isn't the best choice.
I only bought it because it was used, and it's sole purpose was to power a pair of PA mains.

The QSC stuff does seem to be on top of the pile...when it comes to features.

Oh okay, I get it now.

 

[BassmanPaul]

Yep that's it.

Ah....so I was hooking up the power amp input signal wrong! :doh:

I'm using a Banana (amp end) to 1/4" (speaker end) speaker cable.

So really, all I need to do is split my signal from my DI?

For now it would probably be easier to DI the amp to the mixer and send my signal to my cab that way? (since the mixer is already outputing to the power amp in stereo)

Thanks for the HELP!!!!!!

Using a cable with phone plugs in bridge is dangerous for both you and your amp. I simply can't stress this enough. In bridge both the tip and the metal sleeve are hot with respect to ground. You can get a very bad shock if you hold the phone plug in your hand when the amp is outputting a signal.

 

[Zooberwerx]

Using a cable with phone plugs in bridge is dangerous for both you and your amp. I simply can't stress this enough. In bridge both the tip and the metal sleeve are hot with respect to ground. You can get a very bad shock if you hold the phone plug in your hand when the amp is outputting a signal.

Missed that one. Speakon connectors are inexpensive (~$5), safer, and can be easily installed by the end user provided he follows the instructions and uses the correct tools (wire stripper, appropriately sized PH screwdriver, etc.).

Edit: Ooops...same holds true for banana plugs on the speaker side of things. The earlier Acme series II's had 1/4", banana plug, and Speakon inputs. The newer series II's have two dual-function (accepts both 1/4" and Speakon connectors) Neutrik inputs.

Riis

 

[JoshuaTSP]

I've given up on the high output power amp idea for now.
(or at least I can find a preamp I may like)

I'll stick with the Mesa M2000.
300w to each cab isn't much, but I'm done being concerned about the power issues for now too.
I'm plenty loud as it is.

I read the Acme cab user manual, and it really opened my eyes and ears.
I spent some more time with the cabs last night....a lot more time.

Starting to get used to the cabs....the clarity is a million times better than my 2x15. :freak:
Even my wife commented after last rehearsal that the bass was so much clearer. She could actually hear what I was playing. every note.

wow.
I didn't even have them dialed in very well.

Instead of using the myriad of options and settings on the Mesa.
I opted to create one really nice clean tone. I ended up with mixing the FET channel (slightly scooped tone) and the tube channel (punchy in the mids)....resulting in a wonderfully full tone.

I tried to use as little EQ as I could, but I did boost the low end a bit.

My second goal was to dial in a good overdriven tone.
This was much harder.
The tweeters have to be almost off to prevent NASTY fizz.
The mid drivers go up high enough to get fizzy too....but the attenuator knob ended up right around noon-ish.

One thing I noticed is that the cabs sound scooped, compared to my 2x15.
In reality, I think the 2x15 was really hyped up in the mids and low mids.....

The Acme's soft mid range should really make us sound better as a band.
Not as much frequency competition....and the bass will sit a lot better. The clarity is what will help me cut through.
Rather than a wash of blurry bass tone.

The downside is that I'm striving to regain that hard, powerful mid-range.
Which hasn't been going well.

The other downside, is I am now finding out which pedals compress, cut, or uglify the signal more than others.

The Fulltone Bassdrive, was not made for hi-fi.
It severely cuts the low end and compresses the high end (murky).
Oddly, enough, it sounded brighter through my old rig?

All that said, I'm getting much closer to a tone that I enjoy.
These cabs really do take some time and tweaking to get just right.

I'm not unhappy, but I'm not typically used to having to work so hard for good tone. I suppose what you put in, is reflected by what you get out.

 

[Zooberwerx]

If you want to maintain the low-mid presence, don't boost the lows. They'll carry themselves nicely without any embellishment. Boosted lows can mask the low-mids and mids. The Acme's are full-range cabs and require little, if any, accentuation.

Listen to your wife.

Riis

 

[JoshuaTSP]

If you want to maintain the low-mid presence, don't boost the lows. They'll carry themselves nicely without any embellishment. Boosted lows can mask the low-mids and mids. The Acme's are full-range cabs and require little, if any, accentuation.

Listen to your wife.

Riis

I want to solidify the mid-range a little more.....since I'm playing music that is slightly more aggressive.

The low mids and lows are fine.

Actually, the clean tone is good.
It's when I kick in the dirt pedals that the mids sound soft.

 

[BillyB_from_LZ]

Use your 2x15 for dirt and leave the Acmes clean!

My last Acme rig employed a B2 and a home built TL606 style 1x15 (loaded with an EVM 15L). I used a Pearce BC-1 preamp (and a QSC PLX2402) running the Acme clean and the 1x15 receiving a blend of clean and distortion. In all, it sounded incredible!

 

[JoshuaTSP]

I don't need this to get anymore complicated.

Due to limited space in the band van, I can only have the dual B4s or the 2x15.

 

[bassbrock]

It's when I kick in the dirt pedals that the mids sound soft.

My experience with my multitude of Acme cabs (Seven total that I've owned) did not reflect this. It might be a tone preference thing, but I had no issue dialing in authoritative "out front" mids from the Acmes, and it didn't take much adjustment to do so. I always kept the attenuator knobs on the back full on, no attenuation.

You also mentioned that you boosted the bass a little - this is something I never had to do, in fact usually I had to attenuate the bass a bit, either on the bass itself or with a pedal or on my preamp. Any bass boost I would provide to the Acmes would come out HUGE.

What are you using for your dirt pedals? Perhaps they are mid scooped and the Acme cab is just now revealing this to you? Just trying to think outside the box.

Most recently my dirt comes from an Aguilar Tone Hammer with the AGS circuit and it worked great into a Behringer EP2500 power amp into the Acmes.

 

[JoshuaTSP]

My experience with my multitude of Acme cabs (Seven total that I've owned) did not reflect this. It might be a tone preference thing, but I had no issue dialing in authoritative "out front" mids from the Acmes, and it didn't take much adjustment to do so. I always kept the attenuator knobs on the back full on, no attenuation.

I can hear that it's mid scooped.
Although, I was using a mid focused 800RB, into a cab with really strong mids.....so.....

I were running the cab completely clean, I'd probably still cut the tweeter down a little.
I'd have a lot less attenuation the mid driver tho.

With dirt, it gets hard to utilize the the mid and tweeter.

I will have to try running the mid driver up a little more and the tone on the pedal off a little.

You also mentioned that you boosted the bass a little - this is something I never had to do, in fact usually I had to attenuate the bass a bit, either on the bass itself or with a pedal or on my preamp. Any bass boost I would provide to the Acmes would come out HUGE.

Well, I'm playing stoner rock/metal....so a bigger than normal low end is required.

What are you using for your dirt pedals? Perhaps they are mid scooped and the Acme cab is just now revealing this to you? Just trying to think outside the box.

Most recently my dirt comes from an Aguilar Tone Hammer with the AGS circuit and it worked great into a Behringer EP2500 power amp into the Acmes.

That's possible!

I'm using a Fulltone Bassdrive, Keeley RAT, and Guttermouth Destruction Device fuzz.

The Bassdrive definitely isn't mid scooped.
The RAT isn't what I would call mid scooped either.

Must be the Mesa!
I had only used it with the 2x15.....so it probably balanced out.

 

[bassbrock]

I can hear that it's mid scooped.
Although, I was using a mid focused 800RB, into a cab with really strong mids.....so.....

I occasionally used a handheld RTA with pink noise to setup my Acme cabs depending on the need and I can tell you with certainty that the Acme's out of the box are not mid scooped but virtually ruler flat like a studio monitor.

You are probably correct in that it is traditional bass cabs, such as your 2x15, often being mid forward that would cause you to think you are hearing the flat Acmes as mid scooped in comparison. This can happen with just about any 'flat' or 'uncolored' cabinet, such as a fEarful, Accugroove or similar, especially if you A/B the two different cabinet types side by side. Your ears can easily mislead you.

That's possible!

I'm using a Fulltone Bassdrive, Keeley RAT, and Guttermouth Destruction Device fuzz.

The Bassdrive definitely isn't mid scooped.
The RAT isn't what I would call mid scooped either.

Must be the Mesa!
I had only used it with the 2x15.....so it probably balanced out.

As unlikely as it seems, many manufacturers amp heads are not flat even with the knobs set flat. Mesa, although expensive with a good reputation, is no exception. So that is certainly possible.

Not trying to argue, just trying to help with perspective as to why you are hearing what you are hearing. I'm glad you aren't giving up on the cabs and are giving them a full workout before you decide if they are for you

Also, I have an ART Tube Pre and it works great with my bass plugged into the input and the output directly into a power amp and then into an Acme. Over the time I owned Acmes, I tried several preamps until I settled on the Aguilar Tone Hammer. My only issue with the ART was that I couldn't EQ - but that could be easily resolved with a pedal EQ or if your bass has active EQ on it. Otherwise the ART sounded fantastic!

All that being said - If it sounds good, it is good!

 

[JoshuaTSP]

I occasionally used a handheld RTA with pink noise to setup my Acme cabs depending on the need and I can tell you with certainty that the Acme's out of the box are not mid scooped but virtually ruler flat like a studio monitor.

You are probably correct in that it is traditional bass cabs, such as your 2x15, often being mid forward that would cause you to think you are hearing the flat Acmes as mid scooped in comparison. This can happen with just about any 'flat' or 'uncolored' cabinet, such as a fEarful, Accugroove or similar, especially if you A/B the two different cabinet types side by side. Your ears can easily mislead you.


As unlikely as it seems, many manufacturers amp heads are not flat even with the knobs set flat. Mesa, although expensive with a good reputation, is no exception. So that is certainly possible.

Not trying to argue, just trying to help with perspective as to why you are hearing what you are hearing. I'm glad you aren't giving up on the cabs and are giving them a full workout before you decide if they are for you

Also, I have an ART Tube Pre and it works great with my bass plugged into the input and the output directly into a power amp and then into an Acme. Over the time I owned Acmes, I tried several preamps until I settled on the Aguilar Tone Hammer. My only issue with the ART was that I couldn't EQ - but that could be easily resolved with a pedal EQ or if your bass has active EQ on it. Otherwise the ART sounded fantastic!

All that being said - If it sounds good, it is good!

You're right, I should be more clear....
The Acme cabs sound scooped to me.
(not that they actually are)

I have grown accustom to my bass sounding a certain way and assuming that wasn't fairly off "flat".
In reality, I was bumping up the lows, low mids, and mids quite a bit.....plus the high end roll off the 15" speakers have.

Drastically different tone. The 180 degree opposite.

How I hear the sound coming from my cab must be adjusted.


You're right, the single ART tube preamp did sound good. pure.

Knowing what I know now.....and if I were to go for a preamp/poweramp rig. I would definitely want something naturally low mid & mid focused/boosted.

That's the tone I'm striving for right now.

The only thing I didn't like about my 2x15 was how dull/muted it sounded.

Thanks for the clarification and eye opener.
All of this support helps SOOOO much!

(funny thing is, with the Acme cabs....I realized one of my main cables was noticeably darker than the others.
I'm going to test my pedal board cables too.)