Oh, I get it. That's why I said get the first note/chord from the player and then tell them to move on, and that you'll bring it in next week. It's kind of silly to go through that level of learning in a rehearsal when you can practice it at home. Hopefully not everything was capoed so you could still have material to rehearse.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Allow me to vent about internet charts
- Thread starter dougjwray
- Start date
That is the worst environment to try an be a conscientious musician! The good things about that environment are: 1) You usually don't get boo'd off the stage, 2) No matter how bad it was, you can probably come back and play at next service, 3) The pay is usually on time, or your volunteering is welcomed.
I've been in that environment for over 30 years and my take-away is: If you can survive in it, then you can survive in almost any musical situation that you want to be a part of.
I've learned to learn a song the way it is suppose to go, then if there is a rehearsal, understand how the song is being changed, or if no rehearsal, try not to display facial frustration in service during our rendition.
okcrum
in your chest
Thx for the link to that article. I gave it a quick read and found it very interesting. I’ll have to bone up more on Ragas (my knowledge of the structural specifics of that musical idiom is admittedly limited) and then give it another slower tread.
It's a good concise intro to Sagram notation, but it only goes so far as to describe its technical features that are necessary to encode it.
The real deep stuff hit me when I started to realize "Hey, that 43 beat 'phrase' is *only* used in this spot, in this piece, followed by one of *these* 19 beat 'phrases' if it's a morning raga", etc. and that these people were playing this by feel, as easily as me hammering out Musta-stang Sally.
OP here...
I'll just add that I'm good at transposing at sight. One musician I play with is very good (he doesn't use internet charts)... The first day I met him was at a rehearsal for a festival gig which was going to happen in a couple of days. (I was subbing.) He handed me a stack of his handwritten charts to sightread, and they were fine. (They were chord symbols, with musical notes jotted down here and there for particular lines he wanted.) But, occasionally he'd say, "You know what? Let's try this in C instead of A." And I was ready to transpose at sight.
The difference is that when he said "C" it was, in fact, C.
And when he had a repeat sign on the chart, he played the repeat. (etc.)
All I'm really complaining about in this thread are communication problems exacerbated by shoddy charts and lack of musical education.
I'll just add that I'm good at transposing at sight. One musician I play with is very good (he doesn't use internet charts)... The first day I met him was at a rehearsal for a festival gig which was going to happen in a couple of days. (I was subbing.) He handed me a stack of his handwritten charts to sightread, and they were fine. (They were chord symbols, with musical notes jotted down here and there for particular lines he wanted.) But, occasionally he'd say, "You know what? Let's try this in C instead of A." And I was ready to transpose at sight.
The difference is that when he said "C" it was, in fact, C.
And when he had a repeat sign on the chart, he played the repeat. (etc.)All I'm really complaining about in this thread are communication problems exacerbated by shoddy charts and lack of musical education.
Instead of asking what key it’s in, I ask what the first chord is or a chord in the chorus or the progression for the verse / chorus. Something that has one correct answer and no room for interpretation or skill level.
Oh and if they use a capo.
Oh and if they use a capo.
Yet another situation illustrating the high price we pay dealing with those who (for good reasons and bad) lack a certain level of education and the commitment that’s necessary to effectively perform a task.
It’s not just music that’s suffering from it. It’s a systemic problem.
I had to laugh, because I could have written the original post! I make my own hyper-accurate charts from the studio version of a song in it’s original key. Inevitably some other musician or bandmate will say: “That’s not how it goes”, because they are looking at their i-Pad or have simply been playing it “their own way” for years. I smile, and look at my chart, that took lots of diligence to create and wonder where their proof is! Friggin internet tabs are almost always wrong, anybody can upload one. Singers and guitar players use them as gospel, even after I show them how screwed up they are, and have explained that the idiot that uploaded it has no business posting tabs! Don’t even get me started with music theory. A Bb is correct in that key structure. It makes a huge difference if you understand music. I know so many people that are great players that use “beat”, “measure”, “bridge” interchangeably: no idea how to communicate musically.!?! Why can’t they bother to learn!?! Thanks for showing me that I am not alone!
AMEN!!
Regarding that final bit: I, too, know someone who will say, "Let's repeat that measure" when he means, "Let's repeat the chorus." It's mind-boggling at times!
And it would be absolutely fine with me if people said, "We don't play it like the studio version. We play it in G instead of A, we double the intro, we play a single chorus at the end instead of a double chorus, and we insert a guitar solo (playing the verse form) before that final chorus." Instead, they simply play it differently, and then play it differently yet again at the next rehearsal.
Exactly! There is freedom in structure. I’m good with a different arrangement too, if they can tell you what it is, like your example!AMEN!!
Regarding that final bit: I, too, know someone who will say, "Let's repeat that measure" when he means, "Let's repeat the chorus." It's mind-boggling at times!
And it would be absolutely fine with me if people said, "We don't play it like the studio version. We play it in G instead of A, we double the intro, we play a single chorus at the end instead of a double chorus, and we insert a guitar solo (playing the verse form) before that final chorus." Instead, they simply play it differently, and then play it differently yet again at the next rehearsal.
Who else here has played with guitarists who rely on internet charts?
I'm talking about the people who never, ever play along with a recording, but follow the charts that are usually lyrics with chords over them. The chords are often incorrect, and these charts also give you no indication of the actual timing of them.
And I love the charts that say "Key of G. Capo on 6th fret." Or "Key of E. Tune down." What ^&%$# key is it??I like to tell guitar players, "Pretend I'm a piano player, and tell me what key you want to play it in." They usually still have no idea.
Also, I recently saw a chart for a song in D minor which featured an A# chord. I kept telling the guy I was working with that while they sound the same, it's really a Bb chord, FYI. Didn't matter to him... it said it right there in black and white on his chart!!
As an old-timer, I've always transcribed my own charts from recordings. I mentioned this to one band mate, and she said, "Wow! That's impressive!"
I tell you, these things are the scourge of all life on earth.
P.S. Get off my lawn, you kids!
I thought this was one of my old posts for a second.
I look at some "charts" i use as references for seldom played songs at gigs and can't help but think that the people who wrote them were either high or just idiots or were high idiots. On a few of these charts I've got so many corrections written in that I should probably just re-write them.
As for people not listening to the songs...I did a gig this summer with a KB player who does a lot of work. He really is a professional musician in that he does this full time as a ways to earn a living. He's pretty good, BUT he doesn't read music and I don't think has much more of an understanding of harmony other than I/IV/V..
Anyway, at this gig he sent me a list that contained several Billy Joel songs. Piano Man among them. Since I am an O.C.D. freak I spent hours on these tunes to make sure I'd get them right, and spent a lot of time working out the bass part to the piano interlude on Piano Man.
A few chords in these tunes had some inversions, with either the 3rd or 5th in the bass (forget which). The guy not only didn't play the chords the way they were on the recorded version, he also completely skipped the piano interlude.
People ”want” to play music but have little interest in doing the work involved in doing it well. The work doesn’t need to be formal or academic but it needs to be done. How careful was the OP (and others) about choosing charts to download? The bulk of what’s posted on the Internet is posted by people with access but little skill and nearly no diligence. If you want to download good quality charts you need to do your own due diligence to find those sites that have quality charts. You may need to pay for some. Boo-hoo. Recommendations by other people need to be taken with a grain of salt as well because, well, you know...
I remember that one time when an audience member came up after the show and said, "Are you that third chord was a Gmaj7 and not a Gmaj7#11?"
Must be a real challenge explaining to them that their version is wrong if they can’t even hear it’s wrong. Add stubbornness to the mix. Grrrrrrr!!!
People complaining about internet charts - did you grow up with "Guitar for the Practicing Musician" magazine? Those tended to be note for note accurate and set the bar very high. But, the downside is that you only got 3 or so new charts each month, sometimes sans bass line.
How about this one...
I was playing with a guy who was a beginning guitarist (but an experienced musician, otherwise). We played "Midnight Rider", and I could hear that he was missing the first chord in the chorus, which is a Gm7. I pointed it out, and he said that it did say "Gm7" on his chart, but he didn't know what that was, and he didn't "have time to research" it, so he happily decided to play a G major chord. Close enough.
I told him to play a Bb major chord there; if I supplied a G note underneath, everything would be OK.
I was playing with a guy who was a beginning guitarist (but an experienced musician, otherwise). We played "Midnight Rider", and I could hear that he was missing the first chord in the chorus, which is a Gm7. I pointed it out, and he said that it did say "Gm7" on his chart, but he didn't know what that was, and he didn't "have time to research" it, so he happily decided to play a G major chord. Close enough.
I told him to play a Bb major chord there; if I supplied a G note underneath, everything would be OK.
Female singer in my band isn't a bad singer and can more or less sing on key but is absolutely clueless about music theory. She commented one time that she didn't know what makes a chord minor, and was proud of her ignorance it seemed like.
To be honest I think that's par for the course for many (if not most) rockers. Many have somehow learned how to play without really getting a firm grasp on theory. I've played with a lot of those guys in the past and many are incapable of explaining to you what they are playing.
Recently I tried learning some original tunes one of these guys had and it was really just a case of "Im playing this here, than this there", he had no idea how to explain to me exactly what he was playing in terms of the chords and it was up to me to figure it out by ear and come up with a baseline that fits.
Learning someone else's tunes that way works, but the process can be sped up greatly if someone can actually explain to you what they are playing.
Back on topic...internet charts blow..
There’s a clue in there as to why charts posted on the Internet are often debris-filled.
How about this one...
I was playing with a guy who was a beginning guitarist (but an experienced musician, otherwise). We played "Midnight Rider", and I could hear that he was missing the first chord in the chorus, which is a Gm7. I pointed it out, and he said that it did say "Gm7" on his chart, but he didn't know what that was, and he didn't "have time to research" it, so he happily decided to play a G major chord. Close enough.
I told him to play a Bb major chord there; if I supplied a G note underneath, everything would be OK.
That's a good solution.
...
I told him to play a Bb major chord there; if I supplied a G note underneath, everything would be OK.
Sometimes, no matter how unorthodox we want to be, we just have to play the roots.
