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Allow me to vent about internet charts

D

dougjwray

Jul 20, 2005
7,050
7,912
#1
Who else here has played with guitarists who rely on internet charts?

I'm talking about the people who never, ever play along with a recording, but follow the charts that are usually lyrics with chords over them. The chords are often incorrect, and these charts also give you no indication of the actual timing of them.

And I love the charts that say "Key of G. Capo on 6th fret." Or "Key of E. Tune down." What ^&%$# key is it?? :rage: I like to tell guitar players, "Pretend I'm a piano player, and tell me what key you want to play it in." They usually still have no idea.

Also, I recently saw a chart for a song in D minor which featured an A# chord. I kept telling the guy I was working with that while they sound the same, it's really a Bb chord, FYI. Didn't matter to him... it said it right there in black and white on his chart!!

As an old-timer, I've always transcribed my own charts from recordings. I mentioned this to one band mate, and she said, "Wow! That's impressive!" :rollno:
I tell you, these things are the scourge of all life on earth.
P.S. Get off my lawn, you kids!
 
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#2
dougjwray said:
Also, I recently saw a chart for a song in D minor which featured an A# chord. I kept telling the guy I was working with that while they sound the same, it's really a Bb chord, FYI. Didn't matter to him... it said it right there in black and white on his chart!!
Click to expand...

This drives me crazy too. I only recently figured out why so many people write A# instead of Bb: Some brands of digital chromatic tuners only show sharps, not flats. So players who rely too heavily on their tuner pedals, and have never learned to read & write music, might not even be aware of when it is appropriate to use sharps vs. flats.

The other way this can easily happen is if you notate the song in one key, and then use the transpose feature of your music-notation software to transpose it to a different key. If the notation software is not well-written (or user error occurs) then the sharps and flats might not be properly written in the new key.
 
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#5
grumpyoldman.gif
 
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#6
Mushroo said:
This drives me crazy too. I only recently figured out why so many people write A# instead of Bb: Some brands of digital chromatic tuners only show sharps, not flats. So players who rely too heavily on their tuner pedals, and have never learned to read & write music, might not even be aware of when it is appropriate to use sharps vs. flats.

The other way this can easily happen is if you notate the song in one key, and then use the transpose feature of your music-notation software to transpose it to a different key. If the notation software is not well-written (or user error occurs) then the sharps and flats might not be properly written in the new key.
Click to expand...
That all makes sense.
 
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#7
Bass Viking said:
Guitarists are often musical illiterates (compared to pianists and horn players) who never learned music theory. I agree that ear training is an important skill to develop.
Click to expand...

^^^this^^^

I've played with some really creative and talented guitarists like this, but it drives me absolutely insane when you cannot communicate in music terminology with them. If all you're playing is rock with a few chord changes, then fine. But if you're playing or trying to constructing something more complex with them, you might as well be talking to the dog.

Venting also here...
 
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#10
I never look at internet charts, because its easier for me to just learn by ear.

The side effect of having a very good ear is that I've never learned much theory. That is something I'm slowly but surely trying to correct.

I've played with guitarists that rely on those bad charts and tabs though. It drives me nuts because some of what they play from those charts is so bad that it barely resembles the actual song. The worst part is that they can't even hear the difference.
 
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#12
Just ask them to play their first chord, figure out what the root is, and take it from there, if you're playing the song by ear. If not, then ask to play that chord and tell them you'll chart it out for bass and have it ready for next rehearsal. No sense wasting a lot of time on that.

As for charts being wrong, it's not just an internet thing. Even back in the prehistoric days there were books being sold that were filled with wrong and dumbed-down chords. It's the way of things. If you want to play it correctly, you really need the ear to hear it and figure out what the chord should really be.
 
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#14
LBS-bass said:
Just ask them to play their first chord, figure out what the root is, and take it from there, if you're playing the song by ear. If not, then ask to play that chord and tell them you'll chart it out for bass and have it ready for next rehearsal. No sense wasting a lot of time on that.

As for charts being wrong, it's not just an internet thing. Even back in the prehistoric days there were books being sold that were filled with wrong and dumbed-down chords. It's the way of things. If you want to play it correctly, you really need the ear to hear it and figure out what the chord should really be.
Click to expand...

My favorite example of the prehistoric books is a "complete Beatles" songbook, in which a lot of keys are horn players' keys (Eb, Bb, F, etc.), not the ones the Beatles used. I've always guessed that they were transcribed by vindictive old big band musicians who were displaced by rock 'n' roll and were now toiling behind a desk in a publisher's office on Broadway.
As far as your first point, I have no trouble hearing what they're playing. If they passed out copies of their charts to the band members (like "legitimate" bandleaders), *that* would even be sort of OK, since we'd all be playing the same thing. But a typical thing would be someone calling me on the afternoon of a gig, to add a song at the last minute. I say, "What key do you want to do it in?" The guy says, "E" (because that's what his chart says... or maybe it's the first chord). I quickly listen to the original (thank you, YouTube) and transcribe a bass part (notes and everything) and when I get to the gig, he's playing the tune with the capo on the 4th fret, he's missing a bridge (because the chart missed it) and he's playing all of the anticipated hits on the downbeat (because the chart has lyrics and chord symbols and doesn't show trivial stuff like that)! It really drives me nuts. Learn from playing along to the recording, people!! :mad:
 
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#15
On Sundays I meet with a group of acoustic players in a park just for the fun of it to give me a chance to play my ukulele instead of bass. The leader puts together a book of lead sheets he downloaded from the internet that are exactly as you describe, poorly laid out and noted, mistakes, capo for no good reason in my opinion, a real pain in the rear. Other members will do the same with sheets they find on the internet to pass out, making no effort to clean them up.

Since I only use a tablet for my music, I go through the trouble of remaking many of the sheets and sending them to the leader for a new book, but it takes a long time for him to make it happen.
 
#16
dougjwray said:
My favorite example of the prehistoric books is a "complete Beatles" songbook, in which a lot of keys are horn players' keys (Eb, Bb, F, etc.), not the ones the Beatles used. I've always guessed that they were transcribed by vindictive old big band musicians who were displaced by rock 'n' roll and were now toiling behind a desk in a publisher's office on Broadway.
As far as your first point, I have no trouble hearing what they're playing. If they passed out copies of their charts to the band members (like "legitimate" bandleaders), *that* would even be sort of OK, since we'd all be playing the same thing. But a typical thing would be someone calling me on the afternoon of a gig, to add a song at the last minute. I say, "What key do you want to do it in?" The guy says, "E" (because that's what his chart says... or maybe it's the first chord). I quickly listen to the original (thank you, YouTube) and transcribe a bass part (notes and everything) and when I get to the gig, he's playing the tune with the capo on the 4th fret, he's missing a bridge (because the chart missed it) and he's playing all of the anticipated hits on the downbeat (because the chart has lyrics and chord symbols and doesn't show trivial stuff like that)! It really drives me nuts. Learn from playing along to the recording, people!! :mad:
Click to expand...
The other side of this coin are the people who have learned dumbed down versions of songs and when you put good charts in front of them they tell you they're not correct.

We had a whole thread here once about "concert key" vs. "played key" when it comes to guitarists and capos. Some people do feel like the chord forms dictate the key, which drives me nuts but others will defend it with vigor. That's why I just default to using my ears. They will tell me what they actual concert key is and then I don't have to fight with anyone about anything other than bad chord choices.
 
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#17
Some people care to get it right some don't. When my band is working up new tunes, it's not uncommon for us to have a few discrepancies. We just talk about it and agree on what sounds best. No need for drama about it - talk it out and move on.

And yes, I will generally start by grabbing charts off the internet - but I always vet and correct them before they leave the house, and in that process, I've often already bagged the song at a good enough to play level.

While it can be frustrating, communication with less educated players can occur. Just because I was well trained in music theory, doesn't mean everyone is and I really don't expect much theory comprehension in my end of the pool. I don't get worked up about "sharps in a flat key" kind of stuff - as long as my Bb fits with your A# it just doesn't really matter to the ear. Most non-horn bands members can't even read music let alone understand key signatures or circle of fifths. Most non-horn bands know to put their finger on a certain fret at a certain time. Sometimes...

Life's too short to worry about that stuff. Find a common ground method of communicating or go find musicians that are at a level that makes you happy.

Theory is helpful if you know how to use it, but can be quite cumbersome if you don't
 
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#18
LBS-bass said:
The other side of this coin are the people who have learned dumbed down versions of songs and when you put good charts in front of them they tell you they're not correct.

We had a whole thread here once about "concert key" vs. "played key" when it comes to guitarists and capos. Some people do feel like the chord forms dictate the key, which drives me nuts but others will defend it with vigor. That's why I just default to using my ears. They will tell me what they actual concert key is and then I don't have to fight with anyone about anything other than bad chord choices.
Click to expand...
That works... IF they know what "concert key" means. Some people have never seen a piano, and think a song's in D if they're playing the D shape somewhere along the neck, and it's in the first chord in the song.
 
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#19
By the way, I'm not cruel or pedantic to these musicians. I blame it on the phenomenon of internet (or bad songbook) charts. It all seems so easy, but it makes communicating with other musicians so, so difficult.
I also have absolutely no problem at all with playing things in any key-- to help a singer, for example. But singer, know what key you actually want, so that I can do some constructive work before we get together.
Finally, this thread is obviously about cover songs. In the "original music" sphere, I've worked with singer-songwriters who know zero about theory, and using my ear has been the only tool available for learning the stuff and writing parts... especially with guitarists who use interesting and sometimes very odd open tunings. I do love that process.
 
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#20
LBS-bass said:
We had a whole thread here once about "concert key" vs. "played key" when it comes to guitarists and capos. Some people do feel like the chord forms dictate the key, which drives me nuts but others will defend it with vigor. That's why I just default to using my ears. They will tell me what they actual concert key is and then I don't have to fight with anyone about anything other than bad chord choices.
Click to expand...

I remember that thread well. :) The thing a lot of people didn't realize is that it's actually totally correct guitar notation to write the capo key instead of the concert key. So guitarists who do this are not "wrong" just fools for using guitar notation to communicate with non-guitarists.

As opposed to, for example, naming the 6th degree of D minor A# instead of Bb, which is in fact objectively "wrong" no matter what instrument you play.
 
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