There’s been different approaches advocated for that. For extended above the staff passages, the standard 8va and 16va notation could be used. For short segments, or a note or two, there have been various proposals such as a triangular shaped note instead of the usual dot shape indicate it’s played up an octave from what‘s notated. But those are are topics for a different thread since the discussions and examples would take a thread all by itself. Suffice to say the discussions about alternative music notation systems that more closely match what we’re currently composing is ongoing.
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Allow me to vent about internet charts
- Thread starter dougjwray
- Start date
There’s been different approaches advocated for that. For extended above the staff passages, the standard 8va and 16va notation could be used. For short segments, or a note or two, there have been various proposals such as a triangular shaped note instead of the usual dot shape indicate it’s played up an octave from what‘s notated. But those are are topics for a different thread since the discussions and examples would take a thread all by itself. Suffice to say the discussions about alternative music notation systems that more closely match what we’re currently composing is ongoing.
okcrum
in your chest
I’m not shocked in the least. You’re just happily locked into what you know best. Nothing unusual or shocking about that at all.
Adding a single line (for a total of six lines) to our standard five line staff neatly handles all 12 tones and eliminates the need for sharp and flat notations. What you see on the staff is precisely what it is.
And you can as easily learn to read a six line staff just like you once learned to read the traditional five line staff. It’s just a matter of sitting down and learning it since there’s nothing intrinsic or instinctive about reading music. It’s a learned skill.
A six line staff is a lot neater looking too. Imagine not having all those sharps and flats muddying up the staff. Or having to remember the key signature since that’s just a heavy handed and unnecessarily complicated way to avoid using them within a given key. Elimination of sharp, flat, and natural notation also makes reading the rhythmic dotted notations and ties easier too since you no longer would have anything other than the actual notes and their time notations on the staff itself.
But whatever. Some people think it makes perfect sense while others see it as akin to advocating for the destruction of Western music.
Feel free to disagree. I’m perfectly good with that. And not at all shocked.
The piccolo players might not see the benefit, but some might. Everything we read is already 8va'ed so more is no problem.
My first thought was actually "Well, there are people who communicate in Esperanto and Klingon, why not try this?"
I’m not shocked in the least. You’re just happily locked into what you know best. Nothing unusual or shocking about that at all.
Adding a single line (for a total of six lines) to our standard five line staff neatly handles all 12 tones and eliminates the need for sharp and flat notations. What you see on the staff is precisely what it is.
And you can as easily learn to read a six line staff just like you once learned to read the traditional five line staff. It’s just a matter of sitting down and learning it since there’s nothing intrinsic or instinctive about reading music. It’s a learned skill.
A six line staff is a lot neater looking too. Imagine not having all those sharps and flats muddying up the staff. Or having to remember the key signature since that’s just a heavy handed and unnecessarily complicated way to avoid using them within a given key. Elimination of sharp, flat, and natural notation also makes reading the rhythmic dotted notations and ties easier too since you no longer would have anything other than the actual notes and their time notations on the staff itself.
But whatever. Some people think it makes perfect sense while others see it as akin to advocating for the destruction of Western music.
Feel free to disagree. I’m perfectly good with that. And not at all shocked.
I think I understand what you're getting at: If we convened a council of the top music scholars in the land, threw out all the existing conventions, and started over from scratch, we could probably come up with a new system of music notation that is slightly better than the existing system.
You might be surprised that I "agree" with that statement.
That said, it's a huge jump from "the current system has room for improvement" to "the current system is only a convention and there is no logical reason why" it exists in its present form. I agree with the former statement, but definitely not the latter.
The piccolo players might not see the benefit, but some might.
My first thought was actually "Well, there are people who communicate in Esperanto and Klingon, why not?"
Like I said, we tend to double down on what we’re most comfortable with.
Ages ago I got involved in a fair amount of experimental and non-Western music ensembles. It was there that I started to realize just how arbitrary the received truth we’re taught about harmony and music is. I still respect Western music and its underlying theory and framework. But I no longer see it as the “eternal immutable truth” that I did before gaining experience outside of it.
okcrum
in your chest
Like I said, we tend to double down on what we’re most comfortable with.
Ages ago I got involved in a fair amount of experimental and non-Western music ensembles. It was there that I started to realize just how arbitrary the received truth we’re taught about harmony and music is. I still respect Western music and its underlying theory and framework. But I no longer see it as the “eternal immutable truth” that I did before gaining experience outside of it.
I was serious about "why not?". One can demonstrate the inadequacy of current music notation by transcribing an Indian raga. OTOH theirs or any music that doesn't stick to a chromatic scale might give your method problems, too.
I think I understand what you're getting at: If we convened a council of the top music scholars in the land, threw out all the existing conventions, and started over from scratch, we could probably come up with a new system of music notation that is slightly better than the existing system.
You might be surprised that I "agree" with that statement.
That said, it's a huge jump from "the current system has room for improvement" to "the current system is only a convention and there is no logical reason why" it exists in its present form. I agree with the former statement, but definitely not the latter.
Not necessarily an “improvement.” Arguing for a system that’s more logical and consistent, at the risk of derailing the entire academic musical infrastructure (remember when the US was supposed to go over to using the metric system?), isn’t something that’s going to happen. The gravity well created by what’s most familiar and conventional is hard to escape.
I just think it’s worth keeping in mind whenever those who mastered the arcana and the convoluted and exception laden explanations of our current music theory get too insistent about it.
Alternative notation and theory is mostly a thought experiment for me. Something to think about and possibly gain a broader outlook on things. Poor Albert Einstein was just trying to come up with a better explanation for how the universe works. He didn’t ask people to go out and build a bomb with his theories.
Can you explain this a bit better for the benefit of us who don't see the "inadequacy"? I've always operated under the assumption that Indian raga is a classical music system that is structurally defined and precisely notated.
I'll say that I'm right there with you on this one. I tried for just over a year to work with a keyboardist and a guitarist that were absolutely clueless when it came to the key of a song. What really got to me the most is when the keyboardist would say something like "I'm playing this in D but I'm down 2" and she did not know what key that was despite reading the sheet music in order to play the song. The guitar player was even more clueless than she was. It really messed with their heads when I asked for a chord chart in D even though they were playing a song in E. I had to tell them what key they were playing in. The guitar player would ask for a chord chat in the key of E and then consult his handy "guitar chord sheet" to see what chords he was supposed to play. F#/D really threw him into panic mode. Almost every song ended up with a capo on the guitar, and the guy still could not tell you what key he was playing in... Kinda sad...
Might as well call it A hashtagWho else here has played with guitarists who rely on internet charts?
I'm talking about the people who never, ever play along with a recording, but follow the charts that are usually lyrics with chords over them. The chords are often incorrect, and these charts also give you no indication of the actual timing of them.
And I love the charts that say "Key of G. Capo on 6th fret." Or "Key of E. Tune down." What ^&%$# key is it??I like to tell guitar players, "Pretend I'm a piano player, and tell me what key you want to play it in." They usually still have no idea.
Also, I recently saw a chart for a song in D minor which featured an A# chord. I kept telling the guy I was working with that while they sound the same, it's really a Bb chord, FYI. Didn't matter to him... it said it right there in black and white on his chart!!
As an old-timer, I've always transcribed my own charts from recordings. I mentioned this to one band mate, and she said, "Wow! That's impressive!"
I tell you, these things are the scourge of all life on earth.
P.S. Get off my lawn, you kids!
okcrum
in your chest
"structurally defined and precisely notated" in the western musical culture. Yes. Also "structurally defined and precisely notated" in the Indian musical culture.
NOT "structurally defined and precisely notated" as a 1:1 mapping between the two. The chart is thus approximate to the "chart" in traditional sargam.
Invalid Link Removed
"As opposed to many existing music representation systems for western music notation, iSargam is the only music notation encoding system developed for Indian music notation."
Non-chromatic scales need not apply, as I said earlier. That's a well-known objection to the current and proposed notation systems.
It's easy to count the 5/4 when the tabla comes in.
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okcrum
in your chest
Who else here has played with guitarists who rely on internet charts?
I'm talking about the people who never, ever play along with a recording, but follow the charts that are usually lyrics with chords over them. The chords are often incorrect, and these charts also give you no indication of the actual timing of them.
And I love the charts that say "Key of G. Capo on 6th fret." Or "Key of E. Tune down." What ^&%$# key is it??
Also, I recently saw a chart for a song in D minor which featured an A# chord. I kept telling the guy I was working with that while they sound the same, it's really a Bb chord, FYI. Didn't matter to him... it said it right there in black and white on his chart!!
As an old-timer, I've always transcribed my own charts from recordings. I mentioned this to one band mate, and she said, "Wow! That's impressive!"
I tell you, these things are the scourge of all life on earth.
P.S. Get off my lawn, you kids!
Amen Bro! I’ve worked with 3 praise and worship pastors that think they can run a a band using these. The sad fact is they are a colossal waste of time, and brother, we wasted a lot of time trying to reconcile discrepancies.
It isn’t music. You can get the same information on a lead sheet if that’s all you want, but for players that care about thing like making chords changes coordinated, beginning and ending songs correctly, lead sheet are much better.
Who else here has played with guitarists who rely on internet charts?
I'm talking about the people who never, ever play along with a recording, but follow the charts that are usually lyrics with chords over them. The chords are often incorrect, and these charts also give you no indication of the actual timing of them.
And I love the charts that say "Key of G. Capo on 6th fret." Or "Key of E. Tune down." What ^&%$# key is it??
Also, I recently saw a chart for a song in D minor which featured an A# chord. I kept telling the guy I was working with that while they sound the same, it's really a Bb chord, FYI. Didn't matter to him... it said it right there in black and white on his chart!!
As an old-timer, I've always transcribed my own charts from recordings. I mentioned this to one band mate, and she said, "Wow! That's impressive!"
I tell you, these things are the scourge of all life on earth.
P.S. Get off my lawn, you kids!
that kind of chart exist outside of the internet. You need to know the songs and the melody otherwise it is useless.
As for the capo thing ... it is kind of making the guitar into a transposing instrument. Which confuse the shag out of a lot of people.
They only have to know a few chord shape and then put the capo to change key... or they could use it to double guitar lines in a recording.
Start at 10:40
You have to work with all sorts of people. Of course they're going to say Gmajor instead of Bb major, played with a G major shape, capo 3. Once you've established capo position, then you go with the chords in that reference point. Pick up a cheap acoustic and learn some basic chord shapes. Keyboards can easily transpose via a button, guitars can easily transpose via a capo, we have to learn to transpose by shifting pitch or position.
I here thought everyone knew that "three fourths of everything posted on the Interwebs is wrong." Unfortunately that's a pretty accurate statement.
What irks me badly, is that when guitarists are not only playing from incorrect charts, but will argue about a chord or note in a song that by ear is obviously wrong.
I once played in a band that was backing up an "artist" that finished well on the "reality show" Rockstar Supernova from a few years back. Top notch singer and great guitar player, but said performer shot laser beams at me during a rehearsal because I was playing some dissonant notes that were indeed in the original recording of the song. Said performer's ears could not separate the notes from guitar tones. Being the "hired gun", I just gave up and played root notes during that section of the tune.
I know basic music theory, and can transpose to accommodate capos, but I always rely on my ears in the end.
I once played in a band that was backing up an "artist" that finished well on the "reality show" Rockstar Supernova from a few years back. Top notch singer and great guitar player, but said performer shot laser beams at me during a rehearsal because I was playing some dissonant notes that were indeed in the original recording of the song. Said performer's ears could not separate the notes from guitar tones. Being the "hired gun", I just gave up and played root notes during that section of the tune.
I know basic music theory, and can transpose to accommodate capos, but I always rely on my ears in the end.
