Allow me to vent about internet charts

[farace]

Download five chord/lyric charts and odds are they will all be different.

I'll some times use a chord chart as a starting point, but that's it.

This, or the other thing I too often see is that someone transcribed a chart and posted it on a Usenet group back in the early '90s, and it's been reposted an infinite number of times on many different chart sites without anyone ever bothering to correct errors made in the original transcription. And the thing is, these charts were often written by people that are no more expert than the people now using those charts (just like a lot of YouTube "instructional" videos), but the users now treat them as gospel simply because they're written down. I tend to be somewhat skeptical of all charts found online.

Lyric sites are just as bad. I've gone through many, many sites looking for the correct lyrics for a song, and in one instance ("Sonic Reducer" by Rocket From the Tombs) ended up emailing the person who wrote the song, who set me straight (none of the sites, or the many recorded cover versions, had the correct lyric).

 

[Nightman]

Right! And also I hate keyboard players who can tell you the notes they are playing in their right and left hands, but can’t tell you the chord they are playing!!! ***

 

[40Hz]

I think more in terms of intervals than I do chords in a specific key. So: C - Am - Dm - G becomes I - vi - ii - V in my head. After that, just tell me what key you want it to be played in - or play me a measure (or two) and I’ll figure it out myself. I’m also used to correcting the usual mistakenly assigned chords you run into on non-pro lead sheets and chord charts.

There’s few free charts on the Internet that don't have at least some errors in them. So whenever I want a “known good“ piece of sheet music, I go to sheetmusicplus.com to license and download a legal copy. The prices are very reasonable. And the composers get paid for their work.

 

[dougjwray]

Right! And also I hate keyboard players who can tell you the notes they are playing in their right and left hands, but can’t tell you the chord they are playing!!! ***

When I was getting my undergraduate degree in music, there were fellow students who could sightread a Rachmaninoff piano concerto, but had no idea what a subdominant chord was. I enjoyed it at the time, because I would have had a hard time sight reading "Mary Had a Little Lamb" but knew what notes were in a Db13 chord!
It takes all kinds!

 

[oldrocker]

Who else here has played with guitarists who rely on internet charts?

I'm talking about the people who never, ever play along with a recording, but follow the charts that are usually lyrics with chords over them. The chords are often incorrect, and these charts also give you no indication of the actual timing of them.

...

I tell you, these things are the scourge of all life on earth.
P.S. Get off my lawn, you kids!

I have seen this happen. IMO the issue is not that these incorrect charts exist, the issue is the lazy people who will not listen to and learn the songs. This has probably existed long before the bad internet charts became available.

 

[vvvmmm]

I just came here to brag that I'm #1 witha bullet ....


... on the Indie That Sux chart.

 

[Medicine Man]

Fake books are just as bad. My family likes to play in sing music together at hollidays, but it's always out of some fake book or pos internet chart where the music is just whatever cowboy fake chords. So tragic. It's always a challenge to try to hold down the song with whatever garbage chords are in the charts.

 

[LBS-bass]

That works... IF they know what "concert key" means. Some people have never seen a piano, and think a song's in D if they're playing the D shape somewhere along the neck, and it's in the first chord in the song.

No, that's not what I said. I said my ears will tell me what the concert key is.

 

[silky smoove]

I only recently figured out why so many people write A# instead of Bb:

In addition to the reason you gave I have also theorized that composing parts in MIDI using modern DAWs also adds to this. Most modern DAWs, in my experience, list note names as sharps by default. Some have an option to change them to flats, but sharps seems to be the most common based on the ones I've used. Since SOOOOOO many people use MIDI as a composition tool and a performance tool these days I think it gets baked into people's brains that anything on a black key is sharp regardless of song key.

 

[40Hz]

Also, I recently saw a chart for a song in D minor which featured an A# chord. I kept telling the guy I was working with that while they sound the same, it's really a Bb chord, FYI. Didn't matter to him... it said it right there in black and white on his chart!!

It’s only a convention. There’s no logical reason why it’s called Bb rather than A# other than “because that’s just the way it is.” You could also make the argument there’s no such thing as a sharp, flat, or accidental because there’s twelve tones in the modern Western scale - not eight.

A whole lot of unnecessary complexity and additional nomenclature came about when we decided our chromatic scale somehow had to be shoehorned into the classic 8-tone framework. Probably because that’s what music faculties were already trained in and knew best how to teach. So why rewrite the syllabus you’ve been teaching for the last hundred years right?

 

[Bass Viking]

I wonder if guitarists think in terms of sharps instead of flats because they're bending UP.

 

[210superair]

Fake books are just as bad. My family likes to play in sing music together at hollidays, but it's always out of some fake book or pos internet chart where the music is just whatever cowboy fake chords. So tragic. It's always a challenge to try to hold down the song with whatever garbage chords are in the charts.

That's pretty cool though man, very Bing Crosby type thing. Family first.

 

[farace]

In addition to the reason you gave I have also theorized that composing parts in MIDI using modern DAWs also adds to this. Most modern DAWs, in my experience, list note names as sharps by default. Some have an option to change them to flats, but sharps seems to be the most common based on the ones I've used. Since SOOOOOO many people use MIDI as a composition tool and a performance tool these days I think it gets baked into people's brains that anything on a black key is sharp regardless of song key.

Then there are the times you get handed a chart with sharps and flats . . .

 

[Mushroo]

It’s only a convention. There’s no logical reason why it’s called Bb rather than A# other than “because that’s just the way it is.”

Would you be shocked if I "disagree" with this statement?

Lots of "logical reasons," the simplest reason being that it's easier to read sheet music written D-E-F-G-A-Bb-C-D-C-Bb-A-G-F-E-D than it is to read sheet music written D-E-F-G-A-A#-C-D-C-A#-A-G-F-E-D. (Write it out on the staff both ways and see for yourself.)

 

[bearfoot]

All the # chords in b keys are annoying, yes. And no, they are not the same note, if we want to get truly pedantic about it.

Worse is that most internet charts are just plain wrong. Most of the people posting them have no business doing so. You'll see the same ignorantly wrong chart posted on site after site, along with identical lyric errors. Copy / paste only goes so far, printed books and similar sources are almost always better.

 

[zubrycky]

Guitarists are often musical illiterates (compared to pianists and horn players) who never learned music theory. I agree that ear training is an important skill to develop.

That's true. A long time ago I told a guitarist that one of my riffs was based on a mixolidian scale. I said that to help him to learn the riff. However, what I got instead was a puzzled look from someone who heard me speaking in an alien tongue.

 

[zubrycky]

Honestly, to hear the expression "A# chord" when the chord is a Bb one is something that make my ears bleed.

 

[okcrum]

Who else here has played with guitarists who rely on internet charts?

I'm talking about the people who never, ever play along with a recording, but follow the charts that are usually lyrics with chords over them. The chords are often incorrect, and these charts also give you no indication of the actual timing of them.

And I love the charts that say "Key of G. Capo on 6th fret." Or "Key of E. Tune down." What ^&%$# key is it?? I like to tell guitar players, "Pretend I'm a piano player, and tell me what key you want to play it in." They usually still have no idea.

Also, I recently saw a chart for a song in D minor which featured an A# chord. I kept telling the guy I was working with that while they sound the same, it's really a Bb chord, FYI. Didn't matter to him... it said it right there in black and white on his chart!!

As an old-timer, I've always transcribed my own charts from recordings. I mentioned this to one band mate, and she said, "Wow! That's impressive!"
I tell you, these things are the scourge of all life on earth.
P.S. Get off my lawn, you kids!

There are good charts around on the internet. The ones you describe are definitely not!

iRealPro generally has good changes, but those may also not be exactly what's played on any given recording or gig. They tend to be from the published music (without melodies). So it's a good starting point when someone calls an obscure Brazilian tune, or I have to quick remember one particular change in a Stevie Wonder tune.

The A# in your case sounds like a lame attempt to get the guitarist to play an inversion.

 

[40Hz]

Would you be shocked if I "disagree" with this statement?

Lots of "logical reasons," the simplest reason being that it's easier to read sheet music written D-E-F-G-A-Bb-C-D-C-Bb-A-G-F-E-D than it is to read sheet music written D-E-F-G-A-A#-C-D-C-A#-A-G-F-E-D. (Write it out on the staff both ways and see for yourself.)

I’m not shocked in the least. You’re just happily locked into what you know best. Nothing unusual or shocking about that at all.

Adding a single line (for a total of six lines) to our standard five line staff neatly handles all 12 tones and eliminates the need for sharp and flat notations. What you see on the staff is precisely what it is.

And you can as easily learn to read a six line staff just like you once learned to read the traditional five line staff. It’s just a matter of sitting down and learning it since there’s nothing intrinsic or instinctive about reading music. It’s a learned skill.

A six line staff is a lot neater looking too. Imagine not having all those sharps and flats muddying up the staff. Or having to remember the key signature since that’s just a heavy handed and unnecessarily complicated way to avoid using them within a given key. Elimination of sharp, flat, and natural notation also makes reading the rhythmic dotted notations and ties easier too since you no longer would have anything other than the actual notes and their time notations on the staff itself.

But whatever. Some people think it makes perfect sense while others see it as akin to advocating for the destruction of Western music.

Feel free to disagree. I’m perfectly good with that. And not at all shocked.

 

[gln1955]

I’m not shocked in the least. You’re just happily locked into what you know best. Nothing unusual or shocking about that at all.

Adding a single line (for a total of six lines) to our standard five line staff neatly handles all 12 tones and eliminates the need for sharp and flat notations. What you see on the staff is precisely what it is.

And you can as easily learn to read a six line staff just like you once learned to read the traditional five line staff. It’s just a matter of sitting down and learning it since there’s nothing intrinsic or instinctive about reading music. It’s a learned skill.

A six line staff is a lot neater looking too. Imagine not having all those sharps and flats muddying up the staff. Or having to remember the key signature since that’s just a heavy handed and unnecessarily complicated way to avoid using them within a given key. Elimination of sharp, flat, and natural notation also makes reading the rhythmic dotted notations and ties easier too since you no longer would have anything other than the actual notes and their time notations on the staff itself.

But whatever. Some people think it makes perfect sense while others see it as akin to advocating for the destruction of Western music.

Feel free to disagree. I’m perfectly good with that. And not at all shocked.

One problem I see with that is ledger lines. They are hard enough to read as it is. With your 6-line system, it would get out of control. Unless you have added some additional complexity to read an octave up or down.