Am I diva for not wanting to play for free?

[Tampabass]

Have you considered that the people playing for free already understand this fact and just don't give a damn?

That's the part I don't get - that you don't give a damn about it. Why would you want to offer your services for nothing to a club where others are making money, in part from the fact that you are providing entertainment?

Why don't you believe that what you offer has value?

 

[mongo2]

I always play for free, because it's fun.

I get paid for the gig travel and hauling gear.

 

[MatticusMania]

That's the part I don't get - that you don't give a damn about it. Why would you want to offer your services for nothing to a club where others are making money, in part from the fact that you are providing entertainment?

Why don't you believe that what you offer has value?

Because its value is subjective to how much business you can bring into a club. If youre not bringing in big bucks then your music has no value to the people hiring you. I am not ashamed to admit that my bands music doesnt appeal to a large audience, we dont strive to. We're not pulling in 50 heads to buy a beer at $5 a pop. Why would a club be willing to pay a band more money than they can bring in? We're just happy to have a place to play, with new people to play to.

 

[Tampabass]

Look at that accountant again. What if many, many accountants suddenly dropped their fees to $8 an hour just so that they could get more business, because they loved accounting so much and they were so good at it that they would do it for free?

Wouldn't that have an impact on other accountants who were good at what they did, but who previously charged $40 or more an hour? Wouldn't their clients drop them and go with the accountants who charged $8 an hour. Wouldn't that situation hurt all those accountants who were trying to make a living?

Same with good musicians who provide their work for free. Believe it or not, it does have a local impact.

It's all about believing that what you do as a musician has value. And not being taken advantage of.

But, of course, it's a free country and yada yada yada.

Aye, but there's the rub, innit? How "valuable" is that service? It's only as valuable as someone is willing to pay for it, no matter what you think it's worth. It's not just too many musicians who are willing to play for cheap who are driving the price down, it's too many musicians, period.

Look at it this way: Say an accountant makes $80K/yr. Now what if for some reason every college student in the world changes his major to accounting tomorrow? What do you think an accountant's job is worth once all those folks have graduated?

That's what has happened in the music business. Musicians in the public eye have shown what a cool and fun thing it is to be a musician, and consequently everybody (figuratively speaking) wants to be one. Instruments are easily and cheaply had, and so is recording equipment. Everybody thinks they can be a contender. Everybody wants to make a living at it. It won't work.

 

[Tampabass]

I disagree. If music is part of why people go to the club - to enjoy music and drink or whatever - then you are providing a service. It's not a music club w/o music.

And how many people is Joe Bartender bringing to the club every night? How about Joe Doorman? or Joe Dishwasher? They're not bringing in big bucks, so are they of no value?

Like I said, club owners and others are always looking to get something for nothing. And apparently plenty of bands are willing to provide that for them. So there's no incentive for those owners to pay.

Because its value is subjective to how much business you can bring into a club. If youre not bringing in big bucks then your music has no value to the people hiring you. I am not ashamed to admit that my bands music doesnt appeal to a large audience, we dont strive to. We're not pulling in 50 heads to buy a beer at $5 a pop. Why would a club be willing to pay a band more money than they can bring in? We're just happy to have a place to play, with new people to play to.

 

[JackoBass]

I think most musicians aren't generally savvy enough for the business side of being a working musician. So playing for free and justifying it on some level becomes easier than setting a rate, negotiating, upholding agreements, managing expectations, etc. And to some, as soon as there's a paycheck, it's a job - stress, taxes, a boss or client, failure, success, copyrights, unions, insurance riders - all things that you have to consciously deal with now. If you're really a guy who wholeheartedly believes getting paid for a gig is bad, then I challenge you to hang around more pro (as in profession, paid) players and see if it doesn't become contagious.

To the starving pros, I would say there are ways you can still get work and "out value" the free-birds. You can be a smoking player, but are you a good hang (good attitude) when doing sessions? Do you know how to comp or sight read better than the competitors? Do you play other instruments in a pinch? Do you have several sets of gear for the right job that maybe an unpaid guy might not have? Do you pass gigs along to friends you trust if a gig is out of your wheelhouse or you're booked? Everyone has an edge - find yours and sell it.

People pay for entertainment. Music is entertainment. If you choose not to get paid, that's your right - just know you are entertaining yourself at that point.

 

[ggunn]

Because its value is subjective to how much business you can bring into a club. If youre not bringing in big bucks then your music has no value to the people hiring you. I am not ashamed to admit that my bands music doesnt appeal to a large audience, we dont strive to. We're not pulling in 50 heads to buy a beer at $5 a pop. Why would a club be willing to pay a band more money than they can bring in? We're just happy to have a place to play, with new people to play to.

That's a good point, and one that hasn't been brought up. There's this picture being painted of greedy club owners who victimize poor musicians by taking advantage of the money they bring in and not giving them any of it. That certainly does happen, but in my experience most clubs will gladly pay the band if they know that they will draw and the folks they bring in will will ring the register. What they don't want to do is take the chance of promising the band a fat fee and then losing money.

That's how it should be, and if a musician is a part timer (IMO) he should be sensitive to the fact that it's these folks' bread money that is on the line. Several folks have said that playing free gigs leads to more free gigs. Well, one thing is for sure - if you demand a fat fee to play and the club loses money, you won't get another gig there, free or not. And yes, club owners talk and word gets around about that, too.

 

[MatticusMania]

I disagree. If music is part of why people go to the club - to enjoy music and drink or whatever - then you are providing a service. It's not a music club w/o music.

And how many people is Joe Bartender bringing to the club every night? How about Joe Doorman? or Joe Dishwasher? They're not bringing in big bucks, so are they of no value?

Like I said, club owners and others are always looking to get something for nothing. And apparently plenty of bands are willing to provide that for them. So there's no incentive for those owners to pay.

Then we must agree to see things differently. The venue owners are providing us with the service of letting us play their bar/pub/etc. in exchange for us playing music. If the bars/pubs didnt let us play no one else would. And we'd much rather have a gig than not.

 

[tycobb73]

Look at that accountant again. What if many, many accountants suddenly dropped their fees to $8 an hour just so that they could get more business, because they loved accounting so much and they were so good at it that they would do it for free?

Wouldn't that have an impact on other accountants who were good at what they did, but who previously charged $40 or more an hour? Wouldn't their clients drop them and go with the accountants who charged $8 an hour. Wouldn't that situation hurt all those accountants who were trying to make a living?

Same with good musicians who provide their work for free. Believe it or not, it does have a local impact.

It's all about believing that what you do as a musician has value. And not being taken advantage of.

But, of course, it's a free country and yada yada yada.

I'm an accountant and I'll do one better than $8 / hour. I do work for free. My friend who charges #120 / hour still makes a nice living and has a strong client base. He actually refers some of his clients to me because he doesn't want the work.

 

[MatticusMania]

People pay for entertainment. Music is entertainment. If you choose not to get paid, that's your right - just know you are entertaining yourself at that point.

This is the most insightful post in the entire thread.

I am playing to entertain myself, first and foremost.

 

[Tampabass]

Bars are doing musicians a favor by LETTING us play there?!?!!
You're right, we'll have to agree to disagree. Best for me to say "no comment" here.
Good discussion.

Then we must agree to see things differently. The venue owners are providing us with the service of letting us play their bar/pub/etc. in exchange for us playing music. If the bars/pubs didnt let us play no one else would. And we'd much rather have a gig than not.

 

[AMJBASS]

Then we must agree to see things differently. The venue owners are providing us with the service of letting us play their bar/pub/etc. in exchange for us playing music. If the bars/pubs didnt let us play no one else would. And we'd much rather have a gig than not.

Thats not a service IMO. You can play for free during rehearsal. If a club is making money off of your talent/time, you should be compensated(as has been said many times in this thread). I don't want to keep beating the issue, but its a problem in many places. I am a full time musician. I can't afford to play for free. Playing free, or undercutting robs the guys who depend on music for their living. Now of course as Brad said there are a few different levels. I freelance in Jazz most of the time and I am not always playing club dates. There are different rates for Corporate work/weddings/private parties than the average house gig.

 

[mongo2]

People pay for entertainment. Music is entertainment. If you choose not to get paid, that's your right - just know you are entertaining yourself at that point.

That doesn't make sense.

The audience won't know if someone is donating thier skills/time and they'll be just as entertained.

 

[ggunn]

Look at that accountant again. What if many, many accountants suddenly dropped their fees to $8 an hour just so that they could get more business, because they loved accounting so much and they were so good at it that they would do it for free?

Wouldn't that have an impact on other accountants who were good at what they did, but who previously charged $40 or more an hour? Wouldn't their clients drop them and go with the accountants who charged $8 an hour. Wouldn't that situation hurt all those accountants who were trying to make a living?

Same with good musicians who provide their work for free. Believe it or not, it does have a local impact.

It's all about believing that what you do as a musician has value. And not being taken advantage of.

But, of course, it's a free country and yada yada yada.

That's a straw man argument and dodges my point. Musicians who play for peanuts just so they can play aren't doing it to intentionally leave money on the table and screw their fellow musicians. They are doing it because it's that or not play. Yes, in that situation I choose to play, and I can because music is not my livelihood. Absolutely, that sort of reverse economic power is leverage I apply to get gigs.

Like I said, I don't buy the premise that guys who do what I do are "ruining it for everyone", but OTOH it's a competitive world and there is nothing that you can do to promote yourself that doesn't in some way hurt someone else. If you choose to make your living in music, then go for it, but it's a cutthroat business and at the moment there are too many players on the board.

 

[MatticusMania]

Thats not a service IMO. You can play for free during rehearsal.

Yeah, but we can't fit an audience into our rehearsal space.

Bars are doing musicians a favor by LETTING us play there?!?!!
You're right, we'll have to agree to disagree. Best for me to say "no comment" here.
Good discussion.

Maybe theyre not doing your band any favors, but they certainly are for mine. In LA, for original music, bands are payed on the basis that they can get people in the door. When you don't play the latest flavor of music it becomes considerably harder to get people to come out. If you can;t get enough people to come out, the venue will book someone who can.

The pay rate at the venue we played last week is thus: You bring 20 paying people, after 20 paying people what you make from the door is yours to keep. We didnt bring 20 people, but we did make a few new fans and got to a chance to play. We went home happy.

 

[TheVoiceless]

No, you're the one that's been missing the point all along.

It's up to the individual whether they want to get paid or not.

There are absolutely no rules about it.

Still, if someone can't make it pay off to be a musician they'd better find another line of work to support themselves and keep music as a hobby that may result in a gig every once in a while.

I wonder where you stand on "pay to play" venues?

Great! its a FREE for all. I think the point here is, the poster has every right to NOT play for free. And Vice Versa.

I wonder what your take on hiring illegal immigrants in the US, and outsourcing? Cause its a FREE FOR ALL. Why would I want to provide an American with a decent income and health benefits, when I can take advantage of people from poorer country's?

Its NOT the exact thing, yeah I know.... but at some point people need to stick together and look out for the best of the whole. Not saying you HAVE to get paid for every show. But its pretty crappy that some coked up promoter is taking advantage of some young kids that just want to play a show. Making them buy $1500 of tickets so they can share the stage with their favorite touring band, regardless if they are talented enough.

I've done pay to play. And I'm done with it. Had I only had the knowledge when I was younger to not let these slim balls rip me and my bands off.

But hey go play for free. I'm done with that. I've payed my dues. Its time I get some back.

 

[electracoyote]

Look at that accountant again. What if many, many accountants suddenly dropped their fees to $8 an hour just so that they could get more business, because they loved accounting so much and they were so good at it that they would do it for free?

If this analogy applies to the entertainment in your neighborhood, then you have a very good point.

It doesn't translate very well to the entertainment in my neighborhood. The vast majority of bands playing in clubs and bars that serve customers and/or charge a cover are getting paid something for their time, and usually getting drinks and even a meal. In fact, I can't remember the last time I talked to a musician who said he plays for free in my area.

Of course, I'm referring to cover bands. I think Jimmy said it best when he stated different rules apply to originals acts and they need to be lucky/hardworking/damn good to be in a paid position.

I've been around, but I haven't been everywhere. Still, I have to believe my neighborhood is the norm for most locales regarding cover bands getting paid.

 

[ggunn]

Look at that accountant again. What if many, many accountants suddenly dropped their fees to $8 an hour just so that they could get more business, because they loved accounting so much and they were so good at it that they would do it for free?

But that's exactly what's different between music and accounting, innit? If you want a career where people won't do that, be an accountant.

 

[TheVoiceless]

The pay rate at the venue we played last week is thus: You bring 20 paying people, after 20 paying people what you make from the door is yours to keep. We didnt bring 20 people, but we did make a few new fans and got to a chance to play. We went home happy.

Matticus,

No offense but I assume you would have liked to have had more fans at your show. Now that is not choosing to play for free. At least you have the opportunity to make some money.

If I were to run a club, I would hire a good talent buyer and have small guarantee's for every original band. Say you have 4 bands. The pay would be scaled. $25, 50, 75, 100 opener to headliner. With bonuses when numbers are met. Now the bands are happy, their fans are happy cause "the band that sold the most tickets" weren't the headliners. And suddenly people want to come to my club and support a local venue that is supporting its local bands, while making their fans happy.

 

[electracoyote]

To the starving pros, I would say there are ways you can still get work and "out value" the free-birds. You can be a smoking player, but are you a good hang (good attitude) when doing sessions? Do you know how to comp or sight read better than the competitors? Do you play other instruments in a pinch? Do you have several sets of gear for the right job that maybe an unpaid guy might not have? Do you pass gigs along to friends you trust if a gig is out of your wheelhouse or you're booked? Everyone has an edge - find yours and sell it.

Man, great post.

If you want to be a pro and get paid like one, you had better learn the "business" end of the music business.

Rule #1: Don't blame the people around you for your lack of success.

If you think you deserve a bigger slice of pie, and what you're currently doing isn't getting it, do something newer and better to distance yourselves from the plethora of other bands out there, adjust your business model, and work your butt off, because those are the only things you have control over. Blaming the scavengers is not being responsible, and not a healthy work ethic.