Ambient/Post-Rock/Textural bass playing thread

[emjazz]

RE: live music, computers, interaction with others etc….

I consider myself an amateur expert on youth and kids, being around the about 24\7 from ages 5 to 17…..


Every time an old school musician talks about that subject, they might have the right intentions but they always fail to see the big picture. But they make some excellent points in regards top live music and interaction between living breathing expert musicians.

Things change, they always will and will never come back to “the way it was”.
No matter how hard you try to convince the next generation of how it was “better” back then, you’re gonna hit a brick wall at 100mph.

Live music is very far from the list of interests in todays youth it might leave some of you completely on your @$$. They dont give a EFFF, and that’s ok, because like I previously said, things change ….for the better or for the worse.
And what’s so wrong about someone making music by themselves on a computer??? Im just happy a kid can make beats on his laptop without having to spend thousands of $$. Even if they suck at it, at least they’re creating. Where’s the downside in that?
It’s not exactly a magic hit making easy button, it just facilitates the process of creating….IMO.

Same thing happened when hip hop hit in the early 80s, musicians slammed the “new” cool thing on the block because they didn’t understand it.

Now music is made differently, it is what it is, no going back its way to late for that.
I’d rather embrace change, adapt and do my own thing.

I never want to be the old guy saying “you damn kids, it was way better back in my day”

We might never have another Bitches Brew, but again…..do we need another Bitches Brew???
No , we need to evolve and go forward with new ideas and technologies.
Can a computer have the same feel as a Pass\NHOP duo, no…..but thats not the intention either.

Dilla mastered the sampler, he made it sound human. (I know, I’m dilla fan boy #1….) and he completely revolutionized the way drums are played. Just think about that a bit

IMO, IME, YMMV, my 2 cents (hope I got some of this right, again my life long struggle to express thought into words…..)

Yeah but.....it used to be so much better!!!!@!!@@

Everything that you wrote is true. I have to remind myself of this constantly. In the end it's just about the work and about creating something.

 

[Bob_Ross]

Im just happy a kid can make beats on his laptop without having to spend thousands of $$. Even if they suck at it, at least they’re creating. Where’s the downside in that?

for the sake of argument: The potential downside is that that kid -- or lots of kids, or lots of kids and all their friends, or the adults that all those kids & their friends eventually grow up to become -- will equate the act of Creating (in general) with the Suckiness that they created (in their specific experience), and then they won't necessarily value creativity when they encounter it in others.

The democratization of the creative process can be a brilliant thing, because it makes producing (lower-case p, not the "Imma Producer!" meaning) new works the province of the masses, not just the fortunate. And great works of art should reflect/comment on the human condition in ways that speak to all peoples, and what better way to speak to the masses than from their midst... so far so good, right?

But the democratization of the creative process also by definition waters down the level of discourse because it removes the obstacles to entry that once set a high(er) bar for great works of art. It becomes a double-edged sword: More people creating = more opportunities for gems. But more people creating also = more crap to wade through...and where/how do people learn to discern the gems from the crap? Irrespective of whether anybody else shares those opinions on what is Gem/Crap, how does someone develop criteria to allow their personal tastes to discriminate?

 

[HotelX]

My daughter and friend like to come to my gigs. The past few months she has seen 4 or 5 of them. There are also some other youngsters there.

 

[ugly_bassplayer]

for the sake of argument: The potential downside is that that kid -- or lots of kids, or lots of kids and all their friends, or the adults that all those kids & their friends eventually grow up to become -- will equate the act of Creating (in general) with the Suckiness that they created (in their specific experience), and then they won't necessarily value creativity when they encounter it in others.

The democratization of the creative process can be a brilliant thing, because it makes producing (lower-case p, not the "Imma Producer!" meaning) new works the province of the masses, not just the fortunate. And great works of art should reflect/comment on the human condition in ways that speak to all peoples, and what better way to speak to the masses than from their midst... so far so good, right?

But the democratization of the creative process also by definition waters down the level of discourse because it removes the obstacles to entry that once set a high(er) bar for great works of art. It becomes a double-edged sword: More people creating = more opportunities for gems. But more people creating also = more crap to wade through...and where/how do people learn to discern the gems from the crap? Irrespective of whether anybody else shares those opinions on what is Gem/Crap, how does someone develop criteria to allow their personal tastes to discriminate?

Yup quite the paradox/ conundrum.

More people = more gems = more crap = more music to flood us making it harder tk find said "gems".

Appreciating creativity and how to recognize the "good stuff", well now we just opened whole other topic.

One man's crap is another one's gem.

 

[monsterthompson]

But the democratization of the creative process also by definition waters down the level of discourse because it removes the obstacles to entry that once set a high(er) bar for great works of art. It becomes a double-edged sword: More people creating = more opportunities for gems. But more people creating also = more crap to wade through...and where/how do people learn to discern the gems from the crap? Irrespective of whether anybody else shares those opinions on what is Gem/Crap, how does someone develop criteria to allow their personal tastes to discriminate?

Plucked right from my head.

Record companies and radio stations were barriers to access for music I liked. But they were also filters for the crap I didn’t. Only so much music could get through the filters, good or bad, and it required a guide to get it through the process. The gates are open, the guides aren’t what they were, and the burden is on the consumer.

The democratization of music has shown us the effect some would say is the Law of Large Numbers where the sample population is growing and the average of that is getting closer to the true mean. Coming from the filtered population older folks had experienced, what we/they are observing is a regression to the mean which can look like a decline.

Of course that all overlaps with the development of technology which creates nuances and categories which didn’t exist in earlier times. I mean, you can’t compare modern dubstep to the dubstep of the 1690’s or even the 1960’s. You can’t always remove the creativity from the context of the creation. Heck, how would an unbiased observer rate the merit of Bangarang by Skrillex vs Surfin’ Bird from The Trashmen?

 

[ugly_bassplayer]

Plucked right from my head.

Record companies and radio stations were barriers to access for music I liked. But they were also filters for the crap I didn’t. Only so much music could get through the filters, good or bad, and it required a guide to get it through the process. The gates are open, the guides aren’t what they were, and the burden is on the consumer.

The democratization of music has shown us the effect some would say is the Law of Large Numbers where the sample population is growing and the average of that is getting closer to the true mean. Coming from the filtered population older folks had experienced, what we/they are observing is a regression to the mean which can look like a decline.

Of course that all overlaps with the development of technology which creates nuances and categories which didn’t exist in earlier times. I mean, you can’t compare modern dubstep to the dubstep of the 1690’s or even the 1960’s. You can’t always remove the creativity from the context of the creation. Heck, how would an unbiased observer rate the merit of Bangarang by Skrillex vs Surfin’ Bird from The Trashmen?

Skrillex

 

[monsterthompson]

SkrillexView attachment 4303934

Me waiting for your reaction to “Skrillex” as soon as I pressed the “Post Reply” button

 

[ugly_bassplayer]

Me waiting for your reaction to “Skrillex” as soon as I pressed the “Post Reply” button
View attachment 4303938

 

[JES]

On of my standard schticks: crap is the price of culture. You don't get one without the other.

As for young people, I think it depends. Sales of guitars to women and nonbinary people, for instance, have been going up, not down (thank you Taylor Swift, not kidding). Monday I was "at" a talk by someone who builds interfaces for music creation inside video game engines and apparently that's a whole scene (I knew about chip tunes but this is way beyond that). I suspect we're going to see more stuff in more directions, which to me is a good thing.

The kind of stuff I like might become even more niche than it already is, but thanks to limited barriers for circulation and distribution, I also have a decent chance of continuing to find it.

 

[Bob_Ross]

crap is the price of culture.

Priceless! I am so stealing that.

 

[monsterthompson]

Enjoying the new Rob Zombie album. It is what you'd expect from Rob, and that isn't bad.
Enjoying this slower jam.

 

[monsterthompson]

Apropos of our recent discussion of synth vs strings/skins performance: Absent Without Leave - The Absolute Sound

And @monsterthompson -- there's a point of diminishing returns with an integrated system in a modular, just like there are limits on the size of a useful pedalboard. Doesn't mean you can't have more modules or pedals, but it's a "how much do you want to be aware of at once" sort of question. Size is deceptive in modular, though -- my system's gotten slightly bigger in size but with fewer modules, as I am seeking ease of use.

Totally see your point. Part of my effort with this design was to have the bottom 1U be a stand-alone simple device with the top 2U rows being more involved. I'm not sure I got what I wanted, but it is a starting point. The new 1U skiff has a ton of unused power headers, so I could easily fill it with more 2-3 hp sized modules, and move the bigger modules to the top 2U.

I really enjoy the tinkering as much as the playing. I miss wrenching my bike now that I don't mountain bike, so there's something satisfying about turning the hex key.

 

[lordradish]

Gonna comment on the live aspect later when I have time... Just wanted to show you the new pedal I have for the mono board...

 

[ugly_bassplayer]

Gonna comment on the live aspect later when I have time... Just wanted to show you the new pedal I have for the mono board...
View attachment 4304305

Now that is dope as fawwwk!!!!!
Get those razor blade skills out!!!!
Slice that tape.

 

[lordradish]

Now that is dope as fawwwk!!!!!
Get those razor blade skills out!!!!
Slice that tape.

I don't know crap about tape anything. I really want a 4 track 1/2 inch, like the one I stupidly sold a few years ago. With this one, I wanna buy a new reel of tape as well as an old decrepit one, and figure out how to do the loop/Frippertronics thing, so if anyone has any insights on that, please share. Speaking of Fripp# I got some great seats for King Crimson in Aug. They are one of the few old bands out there that just keep getting better. They're heavier than f*uck lately, too. Zappa alumni band (with Scott Thunes, my least favorite Zappa bassist) is opening up, so it should be a great night.

 

[RyanKinBK]

It’s been a busy few days with the family and work, so I’ve just caught up, but overall, just wanted to say +1000 to so much of what’s been said in the last couple of pages.

I don’t have much to add that hasn’t already been said better than I could, but a couple of other thoughts:

- Speaking of Charlie Haden and Dewey... Keith’s American Quartet, anyone?

- It certainly bears considering the generational barriers to entry for various types of music creation (and creative “technology” more broadly speaking). Pianos used to be everywhere, then guitars used to be more accessible/cheap than pianos, and now it seems laptops and iPads are the musical technology of The Youth. It’s ubiquitous and very inexpensive, and generationally it’s what everyone else is using. I think this is neither bad nor good, but it just is. (And I, for one, enjoy a lot of music that’s made without actual bass guitars and upright basses, etc., even though that’s what I came of age with and deeply love and appreciate... But, at the same time, I’ve also always been a younger guy who appreciated the older generations/history/lineage of jazz & other genres, so there’s that, too.)

- The thing I’m most concerned about vis a vis what Bruford was talking about is how isolating (some forms of—don’t know if it’s “most” at this point) music creation has become. There’s certainly a lot of magic in being able to compose, play, improvise, etc. with other sufficiently talented & empathetic musicians in a shared physical space, with or without an audience there to participate, too. That said, non-emotive button presser/knob twiddler music production can also be (obviously) super expressive and emotional, too, but possibly not visually, at least not in the way “rocking out” is. All this has made me think again about finding some time to checking out video synthesis and live video production as a useful component to add to an electronic and/or ambient music performance.

- Last thought: Some (many?) of the P/flat/tort crowd will never get it, and that’s ok. I’m happy to be here with you all.

 

[ugly_bassplayer]

- Last thought: Some (many?) of the P/flat/tort crowd will never get it, and that’s ok. I’m happy to be here with you all.

I'll have to quote one of my all time greats.

MF DOOM aka Viktor Vaughn aka Daniel Dumile

"Whoever ain't get it, ain't supposed to."

( from the song "a dead mouse" on his Viktor Vaughn album)

 

[Jamie Hale]

It’s been a busy few days with the family and work, so I’ve just caught up, but overall, just wanted to say +1000 to so much of what’s been said in the last couple of pages.

I don’t have much to add that hasn’t already been said better than I could, but a couple of other thoughts:

- Speaking of Charlie Haden and Dewey... Keith’s American Quartet, anyone?

- It certainly bears considering the generational barriers to entry for various types of music creation (and creative “technology” more broadly speaking). Pianos used to be everywhere, then guitars used to be more accessible/cheap than pianos, and now it seems laptops and iPads are the musical technology of The Youth. It’s ubiquitous and very inexpensive, and generationally it’s what everyone else is using. I think this is neither bad nor good, but it just is. (And I, for one, enjoy a lot of music that’s made without actual bass guitars and upright basses, etc., even though that’s what I came of age with and deeply love and appreciate... But, at the same time, I’ve also always been a younger guy who appreciated the older generations/history/lineage of jazz & other genres, so there’s that, too.)

- The thing I’m most concerned about vis a vis what Bruford was talking about is how isolating (some forms of—don’t know if it’s “most” at this point) music creation has become. There’s certainly a lot of magic in being able to compose, play, improvise, etc. with other sufficiently talented & empathetic musicians in a shared physical space, with or without an audience there to participate, too. That said, non-emotive button presser/knob twiddler music production can also be (obviously) super expressive and emotional, too, but possibly not visually, at least not in the way “rocking out” is. All this has made me think again about finding some time to checking out video synthesis and live video production as a useful component to add to an electronic and/or ambient music performance.

- Last thought: Some (many?) of the P/flat/tort crowd will never get it, and that’s ok. I’m happy to be here with you all.

I run flats on a Sandberg 5 setup E to C, and changing the pickguard from black to tort, but I am very adventurous about music. Enjoyed reading your post.

 

[Bob_Ross]

I wanna buy a new reel of tape as well as an old decrepit one, and figure out how to do the loop/Frippertronics thing, so if anyone has any insights on that, please share.

If you only have one tape machine it'll be difficult to do the full-on Frippertronics thing. That technique was based on a pair of tape decks: The supply reel was on the left-hand deck, which was in record mode; the takeup reel was on the right hand deck, which was in playback mode...but which was also being fed back into deck #1.

If this Panasonic deck you just got has separate record and playback heads you can do some rudimentary looping, especially if you combine it with a simple mixer. Depending on the length of your tape loop you'll either need a vertical pole, like a straight mic stand, to wrap the tape around and provide tension; or, if it's a short enough loop, stand the deck up vertically at the edge of a table and just suspend a plastic takeup reel at the bottom apex of the loop. You'll need the mixer to combine your instrument's signal with the output of the deck so both are going into the record input, and you'll need to adjust the levels judiciously to make sure you don't just get caturwalling feedback. (Or, so that you know precisely how to get caturwalling feedback when desired.) And you'll want to cover up the erase head with electrical tape, or (preferably) thin masking tape so that your loops provide semi-infinite iterations.

 

[emjazz]

It’s been a busy few days with the family and work, so I’ve just caught up, but overall, just wanted to say +1000 to so much of what’s been said in the last couple of pages.

I don’t have much to add that hasn’t already been said better than I could, but a couple of other thoughts:

- Speaking of Charlie Haden and Dewey... Keith’s American Quartet, anyone?

- It certainly bears considering the generational barriers to entry for various types of music creation (and creative “technology” more broadly speaking). Pianos used to be everywhere, then guitars used to be more accessible/cheap than pianos, and now it seems laptops and iPads are the musical technology of The Youth. It’s ubiquitous and very inexpensive, and generationally it’s what everyone else is using. I think this is neither bad nor good, but it just is. (And I, for one, enjoy a lot of music that’s made without actual bass guitars and upright basses, etc., even though that’s what I came of age with and deeply love and appreciate... But, at the same time, I’ve also always been a younger guy who appreciated the older generations/history/lineage of jazz & other genres, so there’s that, too.)

- The thing I’m most concerned about vis a vis what Bruford was talking about is how isolating (some forms of—don’t know if it’s “most” at this point) music creation has become. There’s certainly a lot of magic in being able to compose, play, improvise, etc. with other sufficiently talented & empathetic musicians in a shared physical space, with or without an audience there to participate, too. That said, non-emotive button presser/knob twiddler music production can also be (obviously) super expressive and emotional, too, but possibly not visually, at least not in the way “rocking out” is. All this has made me think again about finding some time to checking out video synthesis and live video production as a useful component to add to an electronic and/or ambient music performance.

- Last thought: Some (many?) of the P/flat/tort crowd will never get it, and that’s ok. I’m happy to be here with you all.

I was just typing to someone about 60's/70's Keith. What a genius. The American group is a favorite of mine. Dewey is always overlooked, but I feel is one of the great saxophonists of all time. Paul and Charlie are two of my favorite musicians ever. I love that band. In that time period...Old and New Dreams, Air, the first incarnation of Weather Report, Gary Burton's bands, Heijera, Now He Sings, Now he Sobs..electric Miles, Bright Size Life...soooo much music that I adore.