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... and the Berlin wall came tumbling down

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You are absolutely right in what you have said. My stance is this: people discuss music here with a dedication that sometimes borders on the fanatic. This tells me that they are INTO it! Big time! These are the people who I address, those who wish to improve as players.

But here's a thought. Even if one has no real plans to do anything meaningful in music, wouldn't it still make sense to learn how to play? Amateur golfers never plan on joining the PGA. But, wouldn't it be nice to learn how to hit a little white ball into a hole a couple of hundred yards down the fairway?

This is why I also do what I do.

Here's a big point! As a teacher, I'm a pussycat. Just ask anybody who ever studied with me. I don't ask for anything to be memorized. I don't even asked for anything to be LEARNED. I simply want whatever I offer to the students to be practiced, because the rest will take care of itself, with no exceptions. Learn peacefully, with joy, calmly. If you read music, if you can't read a note, it doesn't matter. Just take your time and practice. Gently! Peacefully! Without tension! Do these things and I change musical lives, sometimes in mere days. Why? Because just about 100% of all people will improve this way.
there are a lot of guys here that are really good,but are not up on the academic side of it.....and as long as they are content inside their comfort zone,probably would not go out of their way to learn more theory.....while i am on board with your approach,remember that it does require some serious effort on the part of the player,who may be,in the words of tuli kupferberg,"doin' all right"....

their perspective and yours differ......for you to sit down with world class players is routine,but for the local guitar/bass slinger,that is so far off the radar that a lengthy retreat back to the woodshed is a tough sell....even if they know in their hearts that it would be good for them....

i think of established guys like bb king.....all the larnin' in the world won't help him with what he does......
 
I was just thinking that while it is important to separate art and academics in learning, it is necessary for the student to pay attention to both, which is something I think some people are misunderstanding. While the purpose of studying facts is to learn the language, a person explores art so that once the vocabulary has been established, they will actually have something to say.

My impression of genre/performance based education is that it teaches the cliches of a style and the end result ends up sounding generic. The only way to learn art is to go out there and actually make art, which will be a trial and error but more genuine process. Is this a fair perspective?

Very fair! Just realize that Art comes out of people with little problem. It is a million time harder to learn than to express yourself. For this reason, the content to eventually blend with Art is always trailing way behind. To make art, you need to play where academic principles aren't the main issue in the playing. This puts a totally different attention upon a totally different musical event. Then when you practice academically, that is, out of time, gathering and learning perfect McNuggets of musical excellence, then you are relating to music in a totally different manner.

Do these two things, and you will learn two things, separately. Each will be represented, which means that you will grow in two concepts, not just one, which most bassists seem to be stuck in. Doing both academics and art allows for the eventual enmeshing of these two things to happen, which they will, organically, without fail, never to let you down if you've done the two separate principles correctly.
 
There's definitely a hint of 'tall poppy syndrome' within this issue of personalities - and it is an issue of personalities...or rather the subjective perception, analysis and dissection of same, because it sure isn't about music. I really cannot for the life of me see the contra argument to learning as much tried-and-true information as possible in order to be a better player and/or educator.

To all those who feel at odds with Jeff's blunt avowals now...well, you should have studied with him a quarter century ago - then you'd really have a bruised ego to cry about.

:D
 
there are a lot of guys here that are really good,but are not up on the academic side of it.....and as long as they are content inside their comfort zone,probably would not go out of their way to learn more theory.....while i am on board with your approach,remember that it does require some serious effort on the part of the player,who may be,in the words of tuli kupferberg,"doin' all right"....

their perspective and yours differ......for you to sit down with world class players is routine,but for the local guitar/bass slinger,that is so far off the radar that a lengthy retreat back to the woodshed is a tough sell....even if they know in their hearts that it would be good for them....

i think of established guys like bb king.....all the larnin' in the world won't help him with what he does......

BB and others were motivated by the art that they wished to represent. They needed to learn how to play, which is academics, but there always are those guys who can fullfill their artful goals through the work that they put into playing without going to a teacher to learn how to do it.
This is why the blues makes such a poor academic investment on your part to learn in a classroom.
 
There's definitely a hint of 'tall poppy syndrome' within this issue of personalities - and it is an issue of personalities...or rather the subjective perception, analysis and dissection of same, because it sure isn't about music. I really cannot for the life of me see the contra argument to learning as much tried-and-true information as possible in order to be a better player and/or educator.

To all those who feel at odds with Jeff's blunt avowals now...well, you should have studied with him a quarter century ago - then you'd really have a bruised ego to cry about.

:D

Yeah. I really didn't say things so well back then. I was a tooth chipper for sure. But now I just speak about things that either one accepts or rejects. I don't think that I am saying anything that one might really object to, except in terms of belief. I can live with differences. In the past, I couldn't!

Thank God for THERAPY!!!
 
Yeah. I really didn't say things so well back then. I was a tooth chipper for sure. But now I just speak about things that either one accepts or rejects.

Yeah, you were a rough night or two for some back in the day - but as you were advocating and enacting the exact same approach to musical performance and instruction then as now, so?

I didn't take martial arts instruction to learn how to kiss, and I didn't take instruction from musical masters to learn how to be a nice guy.

;)
 
Very fair! Just realize that Art comes out of people with little problem. It is a million time harder to learn than to express yourself. For this reason, the content to eventually blend with Art is always trailing way behind. To make art, you need to play where academic principles aren't the main issue in the playing. This puts a totally different attention upon a totally different musical event. Then when you practice academically, that is, out of time, gathering and learning perfect McNuggets of musical excellence, then you are relating to music in a totally different manner.

Do these two things, and you will learn two things, separately. Each will be represented, which means that you will grow in two concepts, not just one, which most bassists seem to be stuck in. Doing both academics and art allows for the eventual enmeshing of these two things to happen, which they will, organically, without fail, never to let you down if you've done the two separate principles correctly.

I'd relate my own playing to this. I'm slowly de-mystifying the technical aspects of jazz to the point where I can confidently survive a gig of popular standards but my playing is still generic to my ear because I simply haven't listened to or transcribed enough jazz yet to assimilate the artistic expression of the style. I guess the same could be said of a schooled musician who maybe doesn't "feel" a particular genre because they haven't experienced the scene. Hip hop(a random example I'll add, not a derogatory slur on the art or subculture) may have little or no academic or technical value in the music education system but I wouldn't be able to play it with authentic conviction either because I don't listen to it. Style can't be taught as fact because it's something that can only be naturally absorbed through exposure and experience.
 
My post was not about the academic definition of truth, but about how we discuss it. In practice. Here on TB. Can we talk about our truths without getting hostile?

If we could accept that all truth is relative, and therefore disputable (in a civil, respectful manner of course), IMHO the mods would have much less reason to take action.

True. My post was not in any way meant to be hostile, for the record.
 
As a mod, I think I'd like to chime in here.

1) Generally speaking, things have to get pretty bad before somebody gets permanently banned, in my experience. And sometimes, the very process of moderation necessitates cleaning up stuff in a way that other users can't always see the full story of what's gone down.

2) If a post breaks the rules and we don't see it, then please report it. Sometimes we'll act straight away, at other times we'll act after some discussion and occasionally we'll think there's no reason to respond. But no post report goes unconsidered.

3) As far as closing threads go, sometimes it's just the best way to get folks to take a breather. I personally try to clean up threads rather than close them if things get fraught, and so do my colleagues, but the latter option is the better choice on some occasions. There's always the possibility of continuing the discussion within the rules in a new thread, as is the case with this one.

4) I'm privy to discussions amongst the moderation and admin team and I can assure everyone here that we all do our utmost to be fair at all times and keep the forum a pleasant place to while away some time on the net. I think the popularity of the forum shows that we generally do a good job, even though we're not perfect.

5) As far as the notification thing goes - this is a fair point. Some users have their options set so that we cannot email them, and if they get banned they can't access their PMs to see why that has occurred. But generally speaking, we communicate pretty well with folks, I think.

6) Speaking personally, I certainly don't subscribe to the view that all opinions are equally valid, and I don't really think anyone else does, either. Nor do I think people have the right to be protected from offence, unless the post that offends them breaks the rules. If someone gets offended by a post that doesn't break the rules, then that's their problem.

As far as pouring sugar on us mods goes - Jimmy, get the hell out of here! :D
 
Yeah, you were a rough night or two for some back in the day - but as you were advocating and enacting the exact same approach to musical performance and instruction then as now, so?

I didn't take martial arts instruction to learn how to kiss, and I didn't take instruction from musical masters to learn how to be a nice guy.

;)

I was too hard i n those days and I am not proud of that. But today I am much more willing to chat and hear other points of views. Thank God for middle age! And I apologize to anybody who didn't like my awful tone in those days. I was wrong!!!
 
Long ago... two composers, Ricky and Louie chat...

Ricky: Hey from this vibrating string, I can hear 8 distinct notes! Check it out Louie! Listen to when I lightly press my finger on it at different points. Let's compose some music using all of these notes!

Louie: ok!

they compose...

LOL! ;) Well that's not exactly what I had in mind when inquiring about the history having cited the interest in how things evolve and the enlightenment gained from the history of it.

But, non-the-less a cute fiction, my daughter will probably enjoy it as a bed-time story so rest assured it will have some purpose.

-PE
 
As a mod, I think I'd like to chime in here.

1) Generally speaking, things have to get pretty bad before somebody gets permanently banned, in my experience. And sometimes, the very process of moderation necessitates cleaning up stuff in a way that other users can't always see the full story of what's gone down.

2) If a post breaks the rules and we don't see it, then please report it. Sometimes we'll act straight away, at other times we'll act after some discussion and occasionally we'll think there's no reason to respond. But no post report goes unconsidered.

3) As far as closing threads go, sometimes it's just the best way to get folks to take a breather. I personally try to clean up threads rather than close them if things get fraught, and so do my colleagues, but the latter option is the better choice on some occasions. There's always the possibility of continuing the discussion within the rules in a new thread, as is the case with this one.

4) I'm privy to discussions amongst the moderation and admin team and I can assure everyone here that we all do our utmost to be fair at all times and keep the forum a pleasant place to while away some time on the net. I think the popularity of the forum shows that we generally do a good job, even though we're not perfect.

5) As far as the notification thing goes - this is a fair point. Some users have their options set so that we cannot email them, and if they get banned they can't access their PMs to see why that has occurred. But generally speaking, we communicate pretty well with folks, I think.

6) Speaking personally, I certainly don't subscribe to the view that all opinions are equally valid, and I don't really think anyone else does, either. Nor do I think people have the right to be protected from offence, unless the post that offends them breaks the rules. If someone gets offended by a post that doesn't break the rules, then that's their problem.

AS far as pouring sugar on us mods goes - Jimmy, get the hell out of here! :D

No joke here! You' are one of the guys who has always been cool. Super cool in fact! I assume that the other moderators will now regard playing a little more fair than they have. These aren't bad guys. But, it might be good for them to upgrade their method of interaction from time to time. They're the bosses around here and the "boss" has to remember how he interacts with his "workers".
 
Hey, thanks - I appreciate it. But remember, we mods are a bit like basses, cabs and stomp boxes - everyone has their own favourite and what's loved by one bassist can be despised by another! ;)

THAT'S MY PROBLEM WITH THE MODERATORS! They sometimes don't play fairly because they don't always like what some here say, me for example! So I had to go and fight for my rights!
 
Not about the greater truths within the process, IMO. I was a street kid with a 2X4 on my shoulder preventing musical growth, and the only thing strong enough to knock it off was being forged on a harder anvil. So thank you for that.

You are welcome! Now that the 2x4 is gone, I hope that you will learn slowly, relaxed, patiently, fixing mistakes as you go. It takes time to improve as a bass player, but if you do things right, it doesn't take as much time as you think. Good luck with your music!
 
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