... and the Berlin wall came tumbling down

[cassanova]

I am personally getting sick of this stuff as well. Fine, be a wuss, but don't close the thread, at least allow me to gain some humor value out of my paid support.

I actually used the ugly bass comment because a year or so ago I received a warning for saying I didn't like a bass because I thought it was ugly and dated looking.

Right on Cassanova. Can the tolerable tolerate intolerance?

It seems to me that those that preach tolerance are the most intolerant because they do not tolerate anything that impedes their progress towards a utopian society where everything is just hunky dory and nobody can say anything that could possibly even hurt anyone's fragile feelings.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Dear god this makes my head hurt.



This is exactly what happens when the concepts of 'logical consequences of a set of definitions' and 'physical consequences of natural laws' get all intermingled and mixed up and used interchangeably.

Precise language from a musician on the street trying to get through a gig is not a big deal, precise language from an academic is important.

Actually you are right. It is very hard to describe or teach musical principles with clarity this way.

 

[cassanova]

OK. Thanks. My explanation is that I comment not out of divine superiority, but from 50 years in the field. Also, people will ahve to admit, there really aren't al ot of good bass players around.

What is your definition of a good bass player? IMO many people think to be a good bassist you have to be a virtuoso and know theory inside and out. This usually makes for a good player but IMO doesn't necessarily define what makes a good bass player.

If many of them learn from the methods that are available and still aren't improving as player, doesn't this tell you that the methods that people use must be flawed?

Either that or, they aren't fully comprehending the methods and/or executing them properly.

 

[Eminentbass]

Hey Jeff, I for one have always appreciated your no nonsense way of stating things and truly believe I have benefited from your advice.

I've just done my first jazz few gigs since discovering one of your threads in december. The growth in my playing astonished me. I have been exploring chord tones via the Rich Appleman book and that article of yours(a lot of fun to be had with varying chord types and working through all keys) that commreman forwarded me. I've also nurtured the artistic side by listening to and imitating players(pianists for solo inspiration). My point though, is that the academic work has certainly improved my command and navigation of the instrument making it a lot easier to express the art that is in me. I've still got a long way to go but for the first time I felt like I was able to keep my head above water when playing jazz. Thank you.

 

[Jojabeau]

I am re-rewatching your DVD and find myself agreeing with what you have to say. I think if more people listened to what you say on this DVD they would find you less controversial. You don’t disparage the self-taught you simply point out that it is not the most effective method available. Would anyone really go to a dentist for a root-canal procedure if the diploma proudly identified said dentist as SELF-TAUGHT? What I perceive in this thread is an artificial separation of ‘art’ and ‘academic mechanics’. To be ignorant of standard notation is seen by some to be ‘freeing’. How this process works I am not sure. Victor Wooten has a DVD out I enjoyed very much – however I believe some people have taken the information and stretched it to fit their own needs. He discusses the process by which we learn language (mimicry) and argues that we should learn music the same way – I agree. However at some point a child, particularly a child with imagination and a skill with words would be encouraged to learn to read and write Standard English (ethnocentric I know). We would want that child to understand the mechanics of their language so that they could a) read the works of writers that could better inform their own artistic process and b) make a lasting record of their work to improve and share. As a 4th grade teacher I can’t imagine someone arguing that a pupils writing would flourish if only they stopped reading. I am a poor reader but I still find it invaluable when studying theory. I teach reading to my non-reading jazz students by transcribing J.A. Play-a long bass line with them. The general reaction is “this is way easier than I thought.” In fact my biggest complaint with TAB is that it is packaged as ‘easier than reading’ which it clearly is not. Learn to read well enough to play one Bach piece and you will never question the value of notation.

 

[cloclo]

Also, people will have to admit, there really aren't al ot of good bass players around.

Beauty, my friends, is in the eye of the beholder.
That would mean beauty is subjective (thank god!).

 

[JeffBerlin]

What is your definition of a good bass player? IMO many people think to be a good bassist you have to be a virtuoso and know theory inside and out. This usually makes for a good player but IMO doesn't necessarily define what makes a good bass player.

In a nutshell, a good bass player is somebody who knows how to represent their musical ideas on their instruments. I know that many players hear music in their heads. But I also know that many can't play those ideas on their instruments. The ones who can are good bass players.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Beauty, my friends, is in the eye of the beholder.
That would mean beauty is subjective (thank god!).

Subjectively, I would rather eat a meal cooked by Emeril Lagasse than by a prison cook. Everybody here would.

The subjectivity factor implies that there are no commonly held beliefs. Everything is subjective! But the truth is, there are!

 

[Jojabeau]

Well put!I don't find much benefit in reaching a consensus just to appease players. I certainly do when I am with people, to compromize and work with them, not against them. But, musical facts already speak for themselves and I want to share them with any interested party.

For example, I can't find any reason for anyone to use tablature, and I can't make up a smooth manner to use it even a little bit just to please some guys, because I know that tab cannot help anybody learn how to play better.

So your comment is correct about me. Incidently, if you wish to mention some points that I made that you find errors with, please mention them so that I can think about your comments. Thank you.

I am re-rewatching your DVD and find myself agreeing with what you have to say. I think if more people listened to what you say on this DVD they would find you less controversial. You don’t disparage the self-taught you simply point out that it is not the most effective method available. Would anyone really go to a dentist for a root-canal procedure if the diploma proudly identified said dentist as SELF-TAUGHT? What I perceive in this thread is an artificial separation of ‘art’ and ‘academic mechanics’. To be ignorant of standard notation is seen by some to be ‘freeing’. How this process works I am not sure. Victor Wooten has a DVD out I enjoyed very much – however I believe some people have taken the information and stretched it to fit their own needs. He discusses the process by which we learn language (mimicry) and argues that we should learn music the same way – I agree. However at some point a child, particularly a child with imagination and a skill with words would be encouraged to learn to read and write Standard English (ethnocentric I know). We would want that child to understand the mechanics of their language so that they could a) read the works of writers that could better inform their own artistic process and b) make a lasting record of their work to improve and share. As a 4th grade teacher I can’t imagine someone arguing that a pupils writing would flourish if only they stopped reading. I am a poor reader but I still find it invaluable when studying theory. I teach reading to my non-reading jazz students by transcribing J.A. Play-a long bass line with them. The general reaction is “this is way easier than I thought.” In fact my biggest complaint with TAB is that it is packaged as ‘easier than reading’ which it clearly is not. Learn to read well enough to play one Bach piece and you will never question the value of notation.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Hey Jeff, I for one have always appreciated your no nonsense way of stating things and truly believe I have benefited from your advice.

I've just done my first jazz few gigs since discovering one of your threads in december. The growth in my playing astonished me. I have been exploring chord tones via the Rich Appleman book and that article of yours(a lot of fun to be had with varying chord types and working through all keys) that commreman forwarded me. I've also nurtured the artistic side by listening to and imitating players(pianists for solo inspiration). My point though, is that the academic work has certainly improved my command and navigation of the instrument making it a lot easier to express the art that is in me. I've still got a long way to go but for the first time I felt like I was able to keep my head above water when playing jazz. Thank you.

You are welcome! Keep it up! Once you get a taste after experiencing musical improvement, hopefully this is keep you on this path. Your story shows that truth in music applies to just about everybody who undertakes a plan to improve in something. Why investigate a principle if one doesn't know the details connected to it!

 

[JeffBerlin]

I am re-rewatching your DVD and find myself agreeing with what you have to say. I think if more people listened to what you say on this DVD they would find you less controversial. You don’t disparage the self-taught you simply point out that it is not the most effective method available. Would anyone really go to a dentist for a root-canal procedure if the diploma proudly identified said dentist as SELF-TAUGHT? What I perceive in this thread is an artificial separation of ‘art’ and ‘academic mechanics’. To be ignorant of standard notation is seen by some to be ‘freeing’. How this process works I am not sure. Victor Wooten has a DVD out I enjoyed very much – however I believe some people have taken the information and stretched it to fit their own needs. He discusses the process by which we learn language (mimicry) and argues that we should learn music the same way – I agree. However at some point a child, particularly a child with imagination and a skill with words would be encouraged to learn to read and write Standard English (ethnocentric I know). We would want that child to understand the mechanics of their language so that they could a) read the works of writers that could better inform their own artistic process and b) make a lasting record of their work to improve and share. As a 4th grade teacher I can’t imagine someone arguing that a pupils writing would flourish if only they stopped reading. I am a poor reader but I still find it invaluable when studying theory. I teach reading to my non-reading jazz students by transcribing J.A. Play-a long bass line with them. The general reaction is “this is way easier than I thought.” In fact my biggest complaint with TAB is that it is packaged as ‘easier than reading’ which it clearly is not. Learn to read well enough to play one Bach piece and you will never question the value of notation.

Thanks you for your comments. And Victor is right; you mimic what you hear and learn from this. What Victor left out was the explanation that when you seek out musical improvement, then you don't have to pay to learn what you could be learning for free. The teacher needs to be giving you content that you can't find simly by mimicry. This is where the separation of academics and art starts to beomce clear. Incidently, the separation of academics from art puts teachers on the chopping block. Either they can offer you content or their general approach is performance, usually with a click. If content isn't the core of your lessons then these teachers need to upgrade what they are showing you. This would be great for music if only they all would do this. Remember, a teacher should show you what you cannot figure out on your own for free. If you are learning Rush tunes, then quit that teacher and find someone who will run the show and give you what you need, not necessarily what you want out of music lessons.

 

[cloclo]

Subjectively, I would rather eat a meal cooked by Emeril Lagasse than by a prison cook. Everybody here would.

The subjectivity factor implies that there are no commonly held beliefs. Everything is subjective! But the truth is, there are!

Now let's not underestimate that prison cook.

Anyway, I was referring to the fact that "good" is too broad a term in this discussion (as in general, I'm no native English speaking person so bear with me). If by "good" you mean that the player in question should be living in music as a ballet dancer does in his/her dance (the knowledge, the practising, etc ...) then I agree with you. Let's call him a good technical player then.

How strange to link the subjectivity factor so quickly to no commonly held beliefs. It's not because I like green circles and you like red squares that suddenly the common ground crumbles from underneath our feet.

On the contrary: it is important to know where general rules end and personal opinions start. And the word "good" doesn't help to clarify this.

cheerio!

 

[engedi1]

Subjectively, I would rather eat a meal cooked by Emeril Lagasse than by a prison cook. Everybody here would.

The subjectivity factor implies that there are no commonly held beliefs. Everything is subjective! But the truth is, there are!

Jeff , you are swimming upstream daring to declare there is such a thing as truth. In our screwed up culture, truth is more offensive than the 'f' word-literally! The worst thing you can have do on talkbass, is have an informed opinion. You are sure to be flamed to a crisp in minutes by someone who's fragile, desperate ego you have offended. The morons who preach relativity is the nature of universe have drove me nuts since high school. They say there is no morality, yet for some reason they don't want me to steal THEIR car, or hit THEM in the face-that would clearly be WRONG! It is simply what my brother calls 'stoner philosphy' One of those great ideas that occurs to someone while passing the pipe around. Unfortunately that describes way to many "musicians" and they are offended when you suggest they need to learn something more than their three chords if they want to be real musicians.

However, I say, offend on! Your threads have kept me interested in talkbass, without which, is mostly a great discussion of different types of gear. Your thread has kept inspiring me to keep up with academic practice like the chord tones book and taking lessons with Roy V when I have some extra money.
Thanks again!

 

[Jim Campbell]

Jeff , you are swimming upstream daring to declare there is such a thing as truth. In our screwed up culture, truth is more offensive than the 'f' word-literally! The worst thing you can have do on talkbass, is have an informed opinion. You are sure to be flamed to a crisp in minutes by someone who's fragile, desperate ego you have offended. The morons who preach relativity is the nature of universe have drove me nuts since high school. They say there is no morality, yet for some reason they don't want me to steal THEIR car, or hit THEM in the face-that would clearly be WRONG! It is simply what my brother calls 'stoner philosphy' One of those great ideas that occurs to someone while passing the pipe around. Unfortunately that describes way to many "musicians" and they are offended when you suggest they need to learn something more than their three chords if they want to be real musicians.

However, I say, offend on! Your threads have kept me interested in talkbass, without which, is mostly a great discussion of different types of gear. Your thread has kept inspiring me to keep up with academic practice like the chord tones book and taking lessons with Roy V when I have some extra money.
Thanks again!

well to suggest that everyone "needs" to acquire this info would be a stretch......would there be benefits? absolutely.....would those players improve? no doubt......

however there are those that are happy with the place they are at......
not everyone that plays ball aspires to quarterback the cowboys to a super bowl.....yeah i'm a cowboys fan.....and not every bass player is planning to share a stage with scofield,sight down charts in a pit,or any place else where those skills are required............

but for those who desire excellence,jb's approach seems to be the most efficient way to get there.....

 

[Eminentbass]

You are welcome! Keep it up! Once you get a taste after experiencing musical improvement, hopefully this is keep you on this path. Your story shows that truth in music applies to just about everybody who undertakes a plan to improve in something. Why investigate a principle if one doesn't know the details connected to it!

Progress is addictive, a little bit of visible growth just made me hungry for more. One thing that had a huge impact was finally understanding the clear distinction between art and academics.

Art is personal and people develope this at their own pace by exploring and experimenting with the nuances and "feel" aspects of a chosen genre via listening, jamming, gigging, ensemble classes, etc. Academics serve to reduce technical limitations, increase fluidity and understanding so that players don't have to concentrate so hard on how to express themselves and can just get on with it. I'm not thinking academically when gigging but I am thinking a lot less about where the notes are when I see a previously foreign chord type on a chart because it's gradually becoming instinctive.

P.s the benefits of working on reading are that it's now a lot easier to keep up with following a real book chart and I've even gotten a taste of doing some amateur theatre pit work.

 

[raymondl3]

Too bad the other thread is closed... I wanted to respond...

About what you wrote above... Cmaj7 is only C E G B in a 7 note diatonic scale system. If we had an 8 note system with the new note H, then C E G B would actually be a Cmaj8 chord.

(C D E F G A H B C)
(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 1)
Cmaj7= 1 3 5 7 = C E G H
Cmaj8 =1 3 5 8 =C E G B

(H = Bb)
so Cmaj7 would sound like our modern C7

...

What you are describing sounds like one of the "Bebop scales."

Consider this:
the C diminished scale: C D Eb F Gb Ab Bb B C
1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 bb7 7 8

 

[longfinger]

What you are describing sounds like one of the "Bebop scales."

Consider this:
the C diminished scale: C D Eb F Gb Ab Bb B C
1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 bb7 7 8

I made a typo in the original post, I was in a rush as I am in now.

I changed it. Following the roman alphabet I'm keeping H after G, and before the repeat of A.

Basically the bebop scale is a 7 note diatonic scale, with a chromatic passing tone, not an 8 note diatonic scale (with letter H)

With a fundamental of C, check out the overtones. The removed note is what keeps a scale from being major and minor at the same time.
ie. G Ionian (major) and G melodic minor. (Can't have B and Bb together, it's one or the other.)


====
As for the diminished scale, you wrote it as this.. (I changed the Bb to Bbb)
C D Eb F Gb Ab Bbb B C
1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 bb7 7 8

That has two 7ths. (Or two sixths if Bbb => A ) If we want to have it as a diatonic 8 note scale it becomes..

C D Eb F Gb Hb A B C
1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 bb7 7 8

--

All that is to say that it's not TRUTH that Cmaj7 is C E G B, it is only convention. The sound is truth, the sound is real whether a human hears it or not. But the name Maj7 is a convention, based on a 7 note naming system, created mostly by studying music created by composers who were guided by aesthetics. That's why we no longer have a functioning 8 note naming system with letter H. (Long ago artists likely thought that a collection of notes with three consecutive m2 intervals sounded bad.)

 

[fdeck]

Jeff , you are swimming upstream daring to declare there is such a thing as truth. In our screwed up culture, truth is more offensive than the 'f' word-literally! The worst thing you can have do on talkbass, is have an informed opinion. You are sure to be flamed to a crisp in minutes by someone who's fragile, desperate ego you have offended. The morons who preach relativity is the nature of universe have drove me nuts since high school. They say there is no morality, yet for some reason they don't want me to steal THEIR car, or hit THEM in the face-that would clearly be WRONG! It is simply what my brother calls 'stoner philosphy' One of those great ideas that occurs to someone while passing the pipe around. Unfortunately that describes way to many "musicians" and they are offended when you suggest they need to learn something more than their three chords if they want to be real musicians.

Watch out for logical fallacies:

Ad hominem argument: Questioning the mental state of those who disagree with you. Not all who have disagreed with Jeff are crybabies, or pot smoking relativists.

Straw man argument: Caricaturizing your opponent and then attacking the caricature. Not all who have disagreed with Jeff are clinging to their three chords.

Fewer logical fallacies and more rational argumentation would make these threads less flame-ridden.

However, I say, offend on! Your threads have kept me interested in talkbass, without which, is mostly a great discussion of different types of gear. Your thread has kept inspiring me to keep up with academic practice like the chord tones book and taking lessons with Roy V when I have some extra money.
Thanks again!

Offending people, then blaming them for taking offense, is one definition of trolling.

 

[engedi1]

Fewer logical fallacies and more rational argumentation would make these threads less flame-ridden.

.

Fdeck, Nice use of latin! You need to add Hyperbole (Greek) to your list-"Saying something in as ridiculous a manner as possible, in order to make a point"

So what is the point you may ask? That one problem with TB is that no one seems to be allowed to make a point. I can understand why an unknown like me might get flamed for being as bold and direct as JB, but when you have one of the great players of our times, and a great teacher getting shot to flames by people who have no business doing so, for raising points like "you should learn to read music", it goes a little too far. Now, someone is going to be mad at me for daring to suggest that their opinion is not as valid as Jeff's. Guess what, Jeff has taught hundreds of students, I have taught like, 5. I am willing to learn from him. In modern times, we have lost the ability to learn from a mentor and I am hopefully somewhat humorously, trying to suggest that my 15 year old cousin who has been playing bass for a few months (oops, their I go again with my straw man!) has less of a right to teach me than Jeff does. This thread is still a reaction to the flamer who got the last thread closed down and any comments were directed in that direction, not at people like yourself, or BillNC, or others who's opinion I also respect.

 

[longfinger]

I'm confused I read this as saying an artistic choice had to be made about an academic concept (making the premise 'diatonic scale system' is academic), doesn't the academic need to exist prior to making a choice about it?


-PE

Long ago... two composers, Ricky and Louie chat...

Ricky: Hey from this vibrating string, I can hear 8 distinct notes! Check it out Louie! Listen to when I lightly press my finger on it at different points. Let's compose some music using all of these notes!

Louie: ok!

they compose...
Louie: I can't sing that full range.
Ricky: we'll bring the notes in range we can sing.
Louie: yeah, like this?
Ricky: yeah like that! nice singing.

They compose using all 8 notes.
Louie : this sound awful.
Ricky: Yeah, yuck. But why?
Louie: There's too many small intervals in a row. Too slippery.
Ricky: let's get rid of one of those slippery notes.
Louie: ok.
Ricky: hey that sounds better.
Louie: mmm mmm tasty.
Ricky: what do we call this?
Louie: Who cares? It sounds good. Let's sing some songs and make some music!
Ricky: Ok! If it sounds good, do it. Me likey! Let's start!

They compose and sing a lot of tunes, these become popular tunes. People like what they hear, but don't know why they like it or what it's called. Louie and Ricky hit the big time...

years later...Ricky nears his end....

Ricky's son, Joey, also a musician.

Joey: Dad, all your music uses the same collection of notes, just rearranged in different orders. What do you call this master collection you always start from?
Ricky: I don't know. It sounds good.
Joey: Ok dad, I'll figure out some names for this, so we can preserve your music for my generation and beyond. After, well you know, ... after you're no longer here to show us this yourself by example... Louie is already gone.

Ricky: What a great son I have. Make up your names and labels.

Joey then starts the cataloguing and labeling process of what we will eventually come to know as the major scale , Ionian. That's all the Ricky and Louie used, hundreds of songs over 4 decades. Joey just started the process of naming, the actually name came out 3 generations and 10 000 songs later.

--

That's the process I'm referring to. Composers making music they might not fully understand from an academic point of view, but they make it guided by their artistic intuition. The music that catches on becomes popular, people talk about it, and ask questions about it that don't yet have answers. The music is analyzed and answers are created. The next generation learns these answers and a few of them continue the tradition of innovation by pushing the art beyond the existing standards.

I think that the expression of a feeling, happens before the labeling of that feeling. For me the expression of a feeling is the art, and the labeling of that past expression is the theory/history/academic study of that art.

Again, one can create without preserving, but one cannot preserve what has not yet been created.

Other people have different meanings to the same words, different words for the same concepts, even in the same language.... so this discussion can go on ... and on....and on....