... and the Berlin wall came tumbling down

[nic salsus]

I just don't seem them as doing that great of a job, at least as a group. Too many mean spirited comments go unmentioned by them, but on my threads they seem to be watching with great care. I don't like the inequality to attention that they provide.

Careful what you wish for regarding equality....more than one person has been banned for life for continuously challenging the mods in public as you do. Even if I thought you were 100% right and cheered every time you went after lame moderation I'd be foolish to say so. I don't have the protection of a heavy rep so I gotta keep quiet.

 

[RHFusillo]

This is an interesting thread, as much for the personalities revealed as for the content. I would say that there's a time for the academics and a time for the art, and that you can teach the academics but you can't teach the art.

One of my favorite teachers (*) used to say that you should study and practice the hell out of your theory, but on the gig you should forget about the academics and just play.

As an adult, 30+ years later, I think he was saying that you need to spend the time (Malcolm Gladwell's 10,000 hours) to learn the craft -- the language, if you will -- to be able to express the art that's inside of you.


(*) The teacher was the late Linc Chamberland, a guitarist who worked with Jeff on Dave Liebman's album "Lighten Up Please."

 

[Chris K]

In music THE truth is that pure Cmaj7 chord tones are C, E, G, and B. There most certainly are pure, irrefutable, without a shadow of a doubt, hard eternal truths.

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for your comment. I'm glad you keep saying what you believe has to be said, in a respectful manner. Entirely the way to go for all of us.

Now for Cmaj7 consisting of cegb. That's no truth, it's just a namesgiving agreement. A very widespread agreement (I agree to it also), but still...

I prefer to call Cmaj7 = cegb a FACT. Because, why argue about something that can be looked up in any book on chords? So 'truths' like yours never cause any problems.

There will be discussion only if we take that 'truth' as basis for further reasoning. Let's assume what you said about Cmaj7 IS a truth. Then this truth will only be meaningful if we play Cmaj7 in a piece of music. And then the fuss will start: right chord in that spot? proper inversion?

 

[drteeth]

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for your comment. I'm glad you keep saying what you believe has to be said, in a respectful manner. Entirely the way to go for all of us.

Now for Cmaj7 consisting of cegb. That's no truth, it's just a namesgiving agreement. A very widespread agreement (I agree to it also), but still...

I prefer to call Cmaj7 = cegb a FACT. Because, why argue about something that can be looked up in any book on chords? So 'truths' like yours never cause any problems.

There will be discussion only if we take that 'truth' as basis for further reasoning. Let's assume what you said about Cmaj7 IS a truth. Then this truth will only be meaningful if we play Cmaj7 in a piece of music. And then the fuss will start: right chord in that spot? proper inversion?

Well assuming we consider the conventions we make as a TRUTH by convention, than what he says is a truth (by convention). Let's not drag the definition of truth in the discussion here

 

[JimmyM]

Long ago... two composers, Ricky and Louie chat...

Ricky: Hey from this vibrating string, I can hear 8 distinct notes! Check it out Louie! Listen to when I lightly press my finger on it at different points. Let's compose some music using all of these notes!

Louie: ok!

they compose...
Louie: I can't sing that full range.
Ricky: we'll bring the notes in range we can sing.
Louie: yeah, like this?
Ricky: yeah like that! nice singing.

They compose using all 8 notes.
Louie : this sound awful.
Ricky: Yeah, yuck. But why?
Louie: There's too many small intervals in a row. Too slippery.
Ricky: let's get rid of one of those slippery notes.
Louie: ok.
Ricky: hey that sounds better.
Louie: mmm mmm tasty.
Ricky: what do we call this?
Louie: Who cares? It sounds good. Let's sing some songs and make some music!
Ricky: Ok! If it sounds good, do it. Me likey! Let's start!

They compose and sing a lot of tunes, these become popular tunes. People like what they hear, but don't know why they like it or what it's called. Louie and Ricky hit the big time...

years later...Ricky nears his end....

Ricky's son, Joey, also a musician.

Joey: Dad, all your music uses the same collection of notes, just rearranged in different orders. What do you call this master collection you always start from?
Ricky: I don't know. It sounds good.
Joey: Ok dad, I'll figure out some names for this, so we can preserve your music for my generation and beyond. After, well you know, ... after you're no longer here to show us this yourself by example... Louie is already gone.

Ricky: What a great son I have. Make up your names and labels.

Joey then starts the cataloguing and labeling process of what we will eventually come to know as the major scale , Ionian. That's all the Ricky and Louie used, hundreds of songs over 4 decades. Joey just started the process of naming, the actually name came out 3 generations and 10 000 songs later.

--

That's the process I'm referring to. Composers making music they might not fully understand from an academic point of view, but they make it guided by their artistic intuition. The music that catches on becomes popular, people talk about it, and ask questions about it that don't yet have answers. The music is analyzed and answers are created. The next generation learns these answers and a few of them continue the tradition of innovation by pushing the art beyond the existing standards.

I think that the expression of a feeling, happens before the labeling of that feeling. For me the expression of a feeling is the art, and the labeling of that past expression is the theory/history/academic study of that art.

Again, one can create without preserving, but one cannot preserve what has not yet been created.

Other people have different meanings to the same words, different words for the same concepts, even in the same language.... so this discussion can go on ... and on....and on....

what a very strange story!

 

[Eminentbass]

I'd think that art came before academics(cave paintings came out of man's need to create not study) but it was a process of discovery and somebody had to identify, categorise and expand on the academic principles of the art over a very long period of time. Not all scholars in any art form have the gifting to create(but at least we have a handful of well-informed critics ) but for anyone with an ounce of feel or creativity, being educated can only serve to enhance their ability to translate what's in their heads to the chosen medium. I love learning the theoretical aspect of music, not because I want to be an intellectual or walking encyclopedia but rather because I want to have the skills to cope with any musical situation I find myself in.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Now let's not underestimate that prison cook.

Anyway, I was referring to the fact that "good" is too broad a term in this discussion (as in general, I'm no native English speaking person so bear with me). If by "good" you mean that the player in question should be living in music as a ballet dancer does in his/her dance (the knowledge, the practising, etc ...) then I agree with you. Let's call him a good technical player then.

How strange to link the subjectivity factor so quickly to no commonly held beliefs. It's not because I like green circles and you like red squares that suddenly the common ground crumbles from underneath our feet.

On the contrary: it is important to know where general rules end and personal opinions start. And the word "good" doesn't help to clarify this.

cheerio!

The general rules of music state that there are sounds that are identified and spelled out. They come with names and they come with notes that are eternal and indestructible. But people who play the bass mostly don't know them and can't separate theme from art. In fact, some fight really hard not to. The truth is, some people will do almost anything to avoid learning well. It is easier for them to debate principles that serious players in the past never allowed themselves to be confused with.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Jeff , you are swimming upstream daring to declare there is such a thing as truth. In our screwed up culture, truth is more offensive than the 'f' word-literally! The worst thing you can have do on talkbass, is have an informed opinion. You are sure to be flamed to a crisp in minutes by someone who's fragile, desperate ego you have offended. The morons who preach relativity is the nature of universe have drove me nuts since high school. They say there is no morality, yet for some reason they don't want me to steal THEIR car, or hit THEM in the face-that would clearly be WRONG! It is simply what my brother calls 'stoner philosphy' One of those great ideas that occurs to someone while passing the pipe around. Unfortunately that describes way to many "musicians" and they are offended when you suggest they need to learn something more than their three chords if they want to be real musicians.

However, I say, offend on! Your threads have kept me interested in talkbass, without which, is mostly a great discussion of different types of gear. Your thread has kept inspiring me to keep up with academic practice like the chord tones book and taking lessons with Roy V when I have some extra money.
Thanks again!

It's an uphill effort, but it is for the good of our instrument. So, I think that I will continue like this, trying not to offend. But if the truth is offensive, then my only responsibility in this is that I chose Truth over Pats on the back!

One guy told me about an experience he had at a music event and he told me how much he learned. I questioned if he learned anything worthy of the tuition that he paid. He told me that he could play much better over chord changes after attending those classes and without hearing him play, I told him that he was wrong about that. This part made him mad because he couldn't understand how I could make this statement without knowing what he sounded like (I already knew what he was going to sound like just from the way that he wrote to me.)

He sent me a clip of his playing, and the fellow could barely play a single note next to another. So, I gave him a couple of suggestions of things to practice. He sent me a clip of his playing after the homework that I sent to him, and you could hear the improvement that took place. Why? Not because I'm sudch a genius, but because the facts of music will never let you down, ever, under any circumstance. He told me that he realized that, although he had a great time at this event, he didn't really learn much there, now that he finally dealt with real music to work on.

I knew this was going to be the case (if he honestly saw what was going on with him musical life after starting to practice real music) because if his teachers were going to teach him music they had to know what it was to show it to people. The people at this even didn't know about music (although I know that they woudl disagree with me.) How can they teach what they don't understand!!!

So, I continue to offend by telling people the truth. There is no bigger wake up call than the truth, and some would rather put out their eyes and ears before they heard the truth or look at music in new and better ways.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I'd think that art came before academics(cave paintings came out of man's need to create not study) but it was a process of discovery and somebody had to identify, categorise and expand on the academic principles of the art over a very long period of time. Not all scholars in any art form have the gifting to create(but at least we have a handful of well-informed critics ) but for anyone with an ounce of feel or creativity, being educated can only serve to enhance their ability to translate what's in their heads to the chosen medium. I love learning the theoretical aspect of music, not because I want to be an intellectual or walking encyclopedia but rather because I want to have the skills to cope with any musical situation I find myself in.

Before the cavemen painted on walls, they had to figure out how to make the drawings. Even this was academics before art!

 

[JeffBerlin]

Careful what you wish for regarding equality....more than one person has been banned for life for continuously challenging the mods in public as you do. Even if I thought you were 100% right and cheered every time you went after lame moderation I'd be foolish to say so. I don't have the protection of a heavy rep so I gotta keep quiet.

I cannot believe that the moderators are so vindictive that they would ban a guy for having a problem with the ways that the moderators sometimes do their job. If this is true, then these moderators have to go and new moderators should be brought in.

 

[JeffBerlin]

well to suggest that everyone "needs" to acquire this info would be a stretch......would there be benefits? absolutely.....would those players improve? no doubt......

however there are those that are happy with the place they are at......
not everyone that plays ball aspires to quarterback the cowboys to a super bowl.....yeah i'm a cowboys fan.....and not every bass player is planning to share a stage with scofield,sight down charts in a pit,or any place else where those skills are required............

but for those who desire excellence,jb's approach seems to be the most efficient way to get there.....

You are absolutely right in what you have said. My stance is this: people discuss music here with a dedication that sometimes borders on the fanatic. This tells me that they are INTO it! Big time! These are the people who I address, those who wish to improve as players.

But here's a thought. Even if one has no real plans to do anything meaningful in music, wouldn't it still make sense to learn how to play? Amateur golfers never plan on joining the PGA. But, wouldn't it be nice to learn how to hit a little white ball into a hole a couple of hundred yards down the fairway?

This is why I also do what I do.

Here's a big point! As a teacher, I'm a pussycat. Just ask anybody who ever studied with me. I don't ask for anything to be memorized. I don't even asked for anything to be LEARNED. I simply want whatever I offer to the students to be practiced, because the rest will take care of itself, with no exceptions. Learn peacefully, with joy, calmly. If you read music, if you can't read a note, it doesn't matter. Just take your time and practice. Gently! Peacefully! Without tension! Do these things and I change musical lives, sometimes in mere days. Why? Because just about 100% of all people will improve this way.

 

[Eminentbass]

Before the cavemen painted on walls, they had to figure out how to make the drawings. Even this was academics before art!

I think what I was getting at with that reference is that the world wasn't created with textbooks on art. The desire for creating art led to the discovery and classifiction of the academic principles that existed. The combination of notes in music already existed but somebody had to decide on the jargon and explore the application. We now benefit through their hard work because the facts are organised and we can learn them in a more organised manner which makes our learning more efficient. People can argue semantics for decades and I don't really care to be philosophical about it but I'm certainly grateful for the fact that the knowledge is more accessable and laid out as fact.

 

[JimmyM]

I cannot believe that the moderators are so vindictive that they would ban a guy for having a problem with the ways that the moderators sometimes do their job. If this is true, then these moderators have to go and new moderators should be brought in.

welcome to talkbass.

i have a lot better relationship with the mods now than i used to, but i feel the same way sometimes, quite honestly. and after i got thrown off the 4th time, i realized that it's their ball and field, and if i wanted access to the audience that a big ham like me needs, i'll have to play ball. ever since then, it's not been so bad. i modify my approach a little, pour a little sugar on them, i get thrown off less. really, the only way you're going to get moderation the way you want is to start your own forum and be the moderator. but the other bass sites' audience is smaller, and it's kind of a bringdown

 

[Chris K]

Well assuming we consider the conventions we make as a TRUTH by convention, than what he says is a truth (by convention). Let's not drag the definition of truth in the discussion here

My post was not about the academic definition of truth, but about how we discuss it. In practice. Here on TB. Can we talk about our truths without getting hostile?

If we could accept that all truth is relative, and therefore disputable (in a civil, respectful manner of course), IMHO the mods would have much less reason to take action.

 

[Chris K]

welcome to talkbass.

i have a lot better relationship with the mods now than i used to, but i feel the same way sometimes, quite honestly. and after i got thrown off the 4th time, i realized that it's their ball and field, and if i wanted access to the audience that a big ham like me needs, i'll have to play ball. ever since then, it's not been so bad. i modify my approach a little, pour a little sugar on them, i get thrown off less. really, the only way you're going to get moderation the way you want is to start your own forum and be the moderator. but the other bass sites' audience is smaller, and it's kind of a bringdown

Hey Jim, did you ever get to know WHY they banned you? I should think that if a moderator bans you, he could send you a PM to explain why. Or would that be too much to ask?

 

[JeffBerlin]

welcome to talkbass.

i have a lot better relationship with the mods now than i used to, but i feel the same way sometimes, quite honestly. and after i got thrown off the 4th time, i realized that it's their ball and field, and if i wanted access to the audience that a big ham like me needs, i'll have to play ball. ever since then, it's not been so bad. i modify my approach a little, pour a little sugar on them, i get thrown off less. really, the only way you're going to get moderation the way you want is to start your own forum and be the moderator. but the other bass sites' audience is smaller, and it's kind of a bringdown

I don't want to fight with anybody, and all that I've ever I asked from the moderators is to be fair, because in the past, they sometimes weren't. That's it!

 

[JimmyM]

Hey Jim, did you ever get to know WHY they banned you? I should think that if a moderator bans you, he could send you a PM to explain why. Or would that be too much to ask?

a couple times i had to ask, yes. there was no explanation offered. but i did see when i came back that they had posted the rule i broke, albeit with zero specifics. i agree with you...just banning people without sending them an email explanation is bad form.

 

[JeffBerlin]

a couple times i had to ask, yes. there was no explanation offered. but i did see when i came back that they had posted the rule i broke, albeit with zero specifics. i agree with you...just banning people without sending them an email explanation is bad form.

I knew a guy who sweated like crazy, so I Ban'ed him. But he preferred Right Guard. Bada BIIIGIIINGGGGGG

 

[PiNgtime]

clever. Keep it up

 

[Eminentbass]

I was just thinking that while it is important to separate art and academics in learning, it is necessary for the student to pay attention to both, which is something I think some people are misunderstanding. While the purpose of studying facts is to learn the language, a person explores art so that once the vocabulary has been established, they will actually have something to say.

My impression of genre/performance based education is that it teaches the cliches of a style and the end result ends up sounding generic. The only way to learn art is to go out there and actually make art, which will be a trial and error but more genuine process. Is this a fair perspective?