Another Shooting

[sloasdaylight]

I probably shouldn't be responding to this, since I am not, as you describe, "out to hang Zimmerman and the Sanford P.D.", but heck, I'll play along.

If the FBI finds that Zimmerman did nothing wrong and that the Sanford P.D. Acted appropriately, I would expect that they would provide significant detail to explain the entire sequence of events and how those events would add up to "unfortunate, but unremarkable".

The circumstantial evidence that is available today points to a scenario where Zimmerman's actions led to the death of a teenager who was simply walking home. That evidence includes statements from Martin's family about what he was doing before he left the home, where he was going, what was in his possession when he was found dead and where he was found dead, Zimmerman's statements on the phone to the dispatcher ("acting suspiciously", "high on something", "those black #%*#% always get away", "are you following him - yes - we don't need for you to do that"), the statements of other 911 callers as to what they saw and heard, the seeming lack of effort to identify who the dead person was, the very late information around Martin's phone records)

While none of these pieces of evidence of and by themselves points to "this is absotively, posolutely how it happened, no ifs, ands, or buts", they do point to a likely scenario and a likely callousnous in handling the investigation of the scenario by the SPD. I would expect that should they find that there are no real areas of concern, the FBI would explain exactly how they came to that conclusion.

Now, reverse the question....if the FBI finds that Zimmerman is culpable in Martin's death and at the SPD displayed ineptitude and/or engaged in a coverup, what then? Wuld you be satisfied that those who believe Zimmerman and SPD acted inappropriately we're justified in that belief? Or would you shrug it off as the Feds crumbling under liberal media and activist pressure?

I wouldn't be shocked if they did find Zimmerman culpable (I've said since the start that I think he definitely acted inappropriately and escalated the situation beyond acceptable levels and is probably guilty of at least negligent homicide, though admittedly I'm no legal expert.)

As far as Sanford P.D. is concerned, I again would not be surprised if they were found to be negligent, or derelict in their duties.

 

[onosson]

Trayvon Martin Exclusive: Friend on Phone with Teen Before Death Recalls Final Moments - Yahoo!

The other crazy thing about this case is that Martin had a cell phone and the police had the cell phone but never checked the logs for the last person he called or that called him which would have allowed them to determine who he was and notifying the parents that their son had been killed.

That is pretty astounding.

 

[sloasdaylight]

That is pretty astounding.

Agreed, I can't fathom that.

 

[bassguppy]

looks like they are convening a Grand Jury also to investigate.

A grand jury will look into the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, Seminole County State Attorney Norm Wolfinger said Tuesday.

“I share in the desire of the family and the community to accurately collect and evaluate all the facts surrounding the tragic death of Trayvon Martin,” said Wolfinger in a statement released Tuesday morning. “That is why I directed the expeditious review of the investigation which was delivered by the Sanford Police Department one week ago today….I will also be utilizing the investigative resources of the Seminole County Grand Jury which will be called to session on Tuesday, April 10, 2012.’’

Wolfinger, whose office has been reviewing the case since last week, asked for patience from the public and said his office will conduct “a thorough, deliberate, and just review of the facts.”

Wolfinger’s statement followed a decision late Monday by the U.S. Department of Justice’s Civil Rights Division and the FBI to investigate the killing of the Miami Gardens teenager by a neighborhood watch volunteer.

That announcement coincided with a statement from Florida Gov. Rick Scott asking the Florida Department of Law Enforcement to offer “appropriate resources” in the case.

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[guy n. cognito]

looks like they are convening a Grand Jury also to investigate.

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Hmmm, that looks like the progress many here were waiting for, but we're confident wouldn't happen.

 

[onosson]

Agreed, I can't fathom that.

If his friend's description of the conversation is accurate, it's pretty damning (from an extra-legal point of view).

 

[nortonrider]

looks like they are convening a Grand Jury also to investigate.

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I wonder what's going to happen if they don't charge the guy........riots?

 

[macaroni tony]

Yeah probably

 

[malthumb]

I wonder what's going to happen if they don't charge the guy........riots?

I have faith that we'll never see this question answered.

 

[macaroni tony]

To draw the conclusion that the prosectors are doing nothing and the police are actively covering this up shows bias in those holding those opinions.

I've got the feeling (not conclusion) based on what I've seen on this case that prosecutors and/or cops have been dragging their feet on this investigation for lack of concern for black people.

As a black man having dealt with the LBPD and LAPD, I am biased. I wonder who else will admit their bias...

 

[seventhson]

Trayvon Martin Exclusive: Friend on Phone with Teen Before Death Recalls Final Moments - Yahoo!

The other crazy thing about this case is that Martin had a cell phone and the police had the cell phone but never checked the logs for the last person he called or that called him which would have allowed them to determine who he was and notifying the parents that their son had been killed.

Sanford PD == Keystone Kops

 

[Dr. Cheese]

We can't prove a negative. We will never know what would have happened if this case had not received the attention it as gotten nation and worldwide. I just hope that all investigators work hard to get to the bottom of this incident and are fair. I have my feelings that I have expressed many times about Zimmerman and the police, but now is the time to let the system do what it does.

 

[Relic]

Interesting article. Maybe nothing new but I found it a little enlightening:

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[onosson]

I've got the feeling (not conclusion) based on what I've seen on this case that prosecutors and/or cops have been dragging their feet on this investigation for lack of concern for black people.

As a black man having dealt with the LBPD and LAPD, I am biased. I wonder who else will admit their bias...

I think I have a couple of biases in this case.

1. I live in a country where firearms ownership, the rules regarding it, and general attitudes towards it, are far different than the U.S. The idea of carrying a concealed weapon on your person is much less accepted here in general, certainly. The idea that you could shoot someone for ANY reason and not be arrested or detained while an investigation took place, well it's almost unheard of I would say.

2. My wife is black, and my children are ... whatever term you want to use for the offspring of a black and white couple (I don't use any terms like that for them myself, they're just my kids).

 

[chuck norriss]

Execute Zimmerman.

 

[macaroni tony]

I think I have a couple of biases in this case.

1. I live in a country where firearms ownership, the rules regarding it, and general attitudes towards it, are far different than the U.S. The idea of carrying a concealed weapon on your person is much less accepted here in general, certainly. The idea that you could shoot someone for ANY reason and not be arrested or detained while an investigation took place, well it's almost unheard of I would say.

2. My wife is black, and my children are ... whatever term you want to use for the offspring of a black and white couple (I don't use any terms like that for them myself, they're just my kids).

Yeah, I have a similar view of yours when it comes to gun ownership - I find the concept of concealed carry bizarre.

I wonder if there are any other sorts of bias out there...

 

[guy n. cognito]

Interesting article. Maybe nothing new but I found it a little enlightening:

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Certainly more balanced than some. Interesting to note that this was a "minority" community and to see some positive comments about Zimmerman. Also seemed to be a bit more info on some of the criminal problems experienced in the community.

 

[tZer]

I find the implications of all of this to be very disquieting - to say the least.

It's a little disturbing how, in our endeavor to discuss this topic while sticking to 'the facts', that all possibilities become 'possible' when prevented from exploring what's plausible. It's very easy and safe to say "we don't know" because that's the only true statement any of us can make at this point - but there also seems to be a willingness to ignore plausibility even in the context of playing out hypothetical scenarios.

What's so disturbing to me is that is more than likely how our legal system has to function - for better or worse - and this time, it feels like worse.

As for why people didn't abruptly leap to help - some folks are pretty quick to judge from the safety of hindsight. I think - as Zimmerman was also told, that anyone calling 911 would be told to stay on the phone but not put themselves into harms way or worse, end up interfering with what could be the proper authorities doing their job. The idea that people should run out into the night - or that they can and that because no one apparently did means they are all bad people is a leap. It also seems to me that there was no shortage of people calling 911 to report the disturbance - which, while it may not be enough for some here, IS actually doing something.

With the very real prospect that more armed people could come running - arrive and not know who to shoot - then start shooting at each other not knowing who is helping or who is in trouble or who is the bad guy... I think it's probably best that people called, but didn't run to 'save the day'.

My gut is twisted in knots trying to disregard what seems to be at best an armed and relatively stupid man with an overly exaggerated sense of self who, in his own mind was out 'protecting' his neighbors and was just too stupid to know exactly how badly he was going about it all. Legally Armed and Stupid = It Oughta be a Crime - lucky for Zimmerman, apparently it's not.

At it's worst, it's a guy who knowingly contrived circumstances that he knew would at least allow him to hassle a 'perp' - at which time he could brandish his gun and maybe even use it - and it all went way too well which surprised him causing him to lose control of his otherwise glorious plan to rid the neighborhood of "these ***holes".

Castle this, self-defense that, ugh... Yes, yes, yes... the facts are pesky - and they are sort of needed here in order to properly hold people responsible - or absolve people of being held culpable for their own stupidity - but really - we all know 'people' - and we all know that 'people' can be, and usually are very unimpressive character-wise.

So far, what we 'know' seems to point at Zimmerman being the poster child for why 'stupid' should be a crime - that the murky laws that both allow people to protect themselves also allow people to kill each other (by mistake or otherwise) and get away with it - that the law enforcement officers who initially responded appear to have not done a very good job at doing their job when doing their job was pretty critical to everything that comes after...

Ugh...

 

[Dr. Cheese]

I find the implications of all of this to be very disquieting - to say the least.

It's a little disturbing how, in our endeavor to discuss this topic while sticking to 'the facts', that all possibilities become 'possible' when prevented from exploring what's plausible. It's very easy and safe to say "we don't know" because that's the only true statement any of us can make at this point - but there also seems to be a willingness to ignore plausibility even in the context of playing out hypothetical scenarios.

What's so disturbing to me is that is more than likely how our legal system has to function - for better or worse - and this time, it feels like worse.

As for why people didn't abruptly leap to help - some folks are pretty quick to judge from the safety of hindsight. I think - as Zimmerman was also told, that anyone calling 911 would be told to stay on the phone but not put themselves into harms way or worse, end up interfering with what could be the proper authorities doing their job. The idea that people should run out into the night - or that they can and that because no one apparently did means they are all bad people is a leap. It also seems to me that there was no shortage of people calling 911 to report the disturbance - which, while it may not be enough for some here, IS actually doing something.

With the very real prospect that more armed people could come running - arrive and not know who to shoot - then start shooting at each other not knowing who is helping or who is in trouble or who is the bad guy... I think it's probably best that people called, but didn't run to 'save the day'.

My gut is twisted in knots trying to disregard what seems to be at best an armed and relatively stupid man with an overly exaggerated sense of self who, in his own mind was out 'protecting' his neighbors and was just too stupid to know exactly how badly he was going about it all. Legally Armed and Stupid = It Oughta be a Crime - lucky for Zimmerman, apparently it's not.

At it's worst, it's a guy who knowingly contrived circumstances that he knew would at least allow him to hassle a 'perp' - at which time he could brandish his gun and maybe even use it - and it all went way too well which surprised him causing him to lose control of his otherwise glorious plan to rid the neighborhood of "these ***holes".

Castle this, self-defense that, ugh... Yes, yes, yes... the facts are pesky - and they are sort of needed here in order to properly hold people responsible - or absolve people of being held culpable for their own stupidity - but really - we all know 'people' - and we all know that 'people' can be, and usually are very unimpressive character-wise.

So far, what we 'know' seems to point at Zimmerman being the poster child for why 'stupid' should be a crime - that the murky laws that both allow people to protect themselves also allow people to kill each other (by mistake or otherwise) and get away with it - that the law enforcement officers who initially responded appear to have not done a very good job at doing their job when doing their job was pretty critical to everything that comes after...

Ugh...

I agree that I cannot condemn those who did not rush to help. A gun was being fired, and no one wants to die.

 

[seventhson]

It's a little disturbing how, in our endeavor to discuss this topic while sticking to 'the facts', that all possibilities become 'possible' when prevented from exploring what's plausible. It's very easy and safe to say "we don't know" because that's the only true statement any of us can make at this point - but there also seems to be a willingness to ignore plausibility even in the context of playing out hypothetical scenarios.

indeed. i wonder who you could possible be talking about?