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Any tips for Self Taught Bassists?
- Thread starter JJThunder
- Start date
I've got to say, when i started recording my playing (only recently), i was horrified! Every little error stands out: sloppy attach, inconsistent notes, poor rhythm in parts and timing errors. It can either make you or break you.
LOL, and +1000. Hecklers are a dime a dozen, and more often than not they are covering for their own inadequacy. It's you up there on stage, not them. Takes a little bit of steel in your spine to put yourself up there to begin with, and many people simply do not have the courage.
Recording yourself is an excellent way to improve. You can track your progress empirically, and improvements show up right away. I am so used to recording myself I almost forget that I do it just about every time I master a part or a song, just to document that I've got it.
Lots of good advice here.
I didn't have time to read it all.. so if I repeat something- you know why
Play note for note what a bass player plays
Here is a youtube example of an excellent player ( I don't have an affiliation with him, nor youtube ) soul power - James Brown - bass play along jam - YouTube
This guy has a large number of tracks he plays over- observe that he is playing a lot of note for note copies of the original.
This underscores the point about learning exact bass lines.. there is extreme value in this. Great bass lines are not easily come by.
If you don't agree with that- I hope someday you do.. because it is a truth.
Even on the track Soul Power, this excellent bass player... fools around towards the end of the track, and his note choices, while good, are not quite the equal of what the original bass player laid down.
I played recording dates for decades, and I learned this truth by rubbing elbows with the best of the best.
McCartney often created great bass lines- ditto Jamerson, Marcus Miller, Jaco, Will Lee, Tony Levin. Learn bass lines from the very best.
Basslines are intimately connected to supporting the harmony, which means mainly roots and fifths- to do this, takes much experience- copying "the best", and later analyzing their brilliant choices.. should help as well.
Learn piano chords, or guitar.
Play drum grooves on drums or congas.
LISTEN LISTEN.
If you play a little too loud, that may work, depending on style.
Playing louder than others in band, is called dominating at least in this sense, if you play a little softer than the others, you give up the option to dominate.
Too loud though, means you are less sensitive to what is going on.
So, a fine line there volume wise.
It is fun and sometimes necessary to take control of the band by being a tad louder... not way to loud, just a little louder.
Technique is mainly for solo... solo is 5% of the time.. so your main role is supportive.
Work on a great sound. Great groove.
I didn't have time to read it all.. so if I repeat something- you know why
Play note for note what a bass player plays
Here is a youtube example of an excellent player ( I don't have an affiliation with him, nor youtube ) soul power - James Brown - bass play along jam - YouTube
This guy has a large number of tracks he plays over- observe that he is playing a lot of note for note copies of the original.
This underscores the point about learning exact bass lines.. there is extreme value in this. Great bass lines are not easily come by.
If you don't agree with that- I hope someday you do.. because it is a truth.
Even on the track Soul Power, this excellent bass player... fools around towards the end of the track, and his note choices, while good, are not quite the equal of what the original bass player laid down.
I played recording dates for decades, and I learned this truth by rubbing elbows with the best of the best.
McCartney often created great bass lines- ditto Jamerson, Marcus Miller, Jaco, Will Lee, Tony Levin. Learn bass lines from the very best.
Basslines are intimately connected to supporting the harmony, which means mainly roots and fifths- to do this, takes much experience- copying "the best", and later analyzing their brilliant choices.. should help as well.
Learn piano chords, or guitar.
Play drum grooves on drums or congas.
LISTEN LISTEN.
If you play a little too loud, that may work, depending on style.
Playing louder than others in band, is called dominating at least in this sense, if you play a little softer than the others, you give up the option to dominate.
Too loud though, means you are less sensitive to what is going on.
So, a fine line there volume wise.
It is fun and sometimes necessary to take control of the band by being a tad louder... not way to loud, just a little louder.
Technique is mainly for solo... solo is 5% of the time.. so your main role is supportive.
Work on a great sound. Great groove.
I love how majority of replies are get a teacher, for some people its near impossible. I have been trying to find a good teach for over a year now. If you work weird work shifts and have to have lessons on different days at different times instead of the same set lessons every week most teachers out there will not take you at all.
The last time I had a teacher it was over an hour and a half drive each way for me to go to a lesson and it was hard as hell to fit in that much time on a day off when you have other things to do as well.
Still looking.....
The last time I had a teacher it was over an hour and a half drive each way for me to go to a lesson and it was hard as hell to fit in that much time on a day off when you have other things to do as well.
Still looking.....
Think: first part of chain that ends in sound coming out of your speaker is your mind. Listen to the music A LOT and try to hear bass lines. Think, why does it sound so good? What makes it groovy, mellow, silky, whatever you think of it? Sing along the same line. Sing the line you would have played instead.
I've had a 6 years pause of playing bass, and my friends pro musicians claim that my playing developed in the meantime. During the pause, I listened a lot to the music, and I think that most developing potential any bass player has is purely intellectual.
Performing: don't overstretch yourself. Better to simplify bass line and play it spot-on, than to try something impossible and make mistakes. One of basic keys of good bass playing is to be accurate. Beginners often make mistake of taking bigger bite than they can chew, don't do that. Make it simple (as much as it is necessary to sound accurate), and make every note count. You'll sound like a pro
Same opinion here.
I wouldn't advise to ignore the negatives outside of the "you lack talent" crap, but always look for the learning points in these statements.
If anyone spends that little effort to tell you you're good or bad, always say "thanks" and ask what that person thinks you should work on to improve. Don't be defensive or patronizing, as there's that risk when confronted with a complaint or a compliment.
If you're genuinely interested in improving, that should show through.
If anyone spends that little effort to tell you you're good or bad, always say "thanks" and ask what that person thinks you should work on to improve. Don't be defensive or patronizing, as there's that risk when confronted with a complaint or a compliment.
If you're genuinely interested in improving, that should show through.
Having been self taught for almost 40 years, I went a lot of different ways from guitar, keyboard, sax, harmonica, trombone and bass - all was good and today I am still a functional player in almost all of the aforementioned.
Then after years of inactivity and working a real job where I made money on a schedule, I retired and went back to playing again. It was an eye opener.
Hand position and technique (even picking) will work it's way out with just a few pointers and mimicking other bassist when you can see their style on YouTube or other vid streaming sites, all well-and-good.
I think the real test is being able to play 'Juke Box' and just stream a station that plays a variety of music and you force yourself to play along. This develops speed, agility and the ability to 'hear' the key of the music. Ear training is very important, as is reading scores.
Besides learning to hear quickly and find the root of any song very fast will always pay off: you can't know them all but finding the correct box will always get you moving in the right direction.
My next thought is to get to know your frets in a Biblical way (wink-wink) and be able to find all the notes in other octaves, on other strings - anywhere up and down the neck.
Any time you hear a song - ANY song, your mind and fingers should automatically move to the right position. That's called 'chunking'. Let me explain.
The process within our brains that creates habits is a three-step loop.
First, there is a cue: a trigger that tells your brain to go into automatic mode and which habit to use.
Then there is the routine, which can be physical or mental or emotional.
Finally, there is a reward, which helps your brain figure out if this particular loop is worth remembering for the future.
Over time, this loop cue, routine, reward; cue, routine, reward becomes more and more automatic. The cue and reward become neurologically intertwined until a sense of craving emerges.
This is NOT really learning, but is establishing a library of loops that you will recognize as either fitting or not fitting a certain situation. It's that simple.
Learning, OTOH, is expanding musical areas diagnostically - maybe not clearly different from chunking, but it has subtle differences.
Learning is expansive; chunking is actually playing with technique after the learning curve has flattened.
Whats unique about cues and rewards, however, is how subtle they can be. Neurological studies have revealed that some cues span just milliseconds, eg: musical scales or octave or arpeggios.
These rewards then can range from the obvious (like the sugar rush that a morning doughnut habit provides) to the infinitesimal (like the barely noticeable but measurable sense of relief the brain experiences after successfully navigating the fretboard and staying in key).
Most cues and rewards, in fact, happen so quickly and are so slight that we are hardly aware of them at all. But our neural systems notice and use them to build automatic behaviors.
Habits however good or bad they may be, arent destiny they can be ignored, changed or replaced.
A bad habit, once noted and worked upon to change; can indeed be changed for the better or more correct perception as required. So you're not dead meat if you have learned a wrong way to hold a string or hold a pick. It can be fixed!
But its also true that once the loop is established and a habit emerges, your brain stops fully participating in decision-making. So unless you deliberately fight a habit unless you find new cues and rewards the old pattern will unfold automatically when and where you don't want it to show up!.
Again - in the lab experiments that were performed where trained rats (read: bass players) were to run down a maze until it was a habit, and then the maze was changed to extinguished the habit by changing the placement of the reward.
EG: hitting a Cb instead of a C was wrong, but it had been learned and now needed to be changed. This just required a new 'chunk' to overwrite the old, wrong 'chunk'.
Rats (or bass players) rely almost entirely on 'chunking' and grouping memory into performances - or why else try to learn a song in the first place?
I contend that this chunking can be put to use and individually be called up after a great number of 'chunks' are stored away for instant recall by any player.
It's called: 'repetitive practice' --- but it's repetitive practice with a mission; the reward is obvious.
.
Then after years of inactivity and working a real job where I made money on a schedule, I retired and went back to playing again. It was an eye opener.
Hand position and technique (even picking) will work it's way out with just a few pointers and mimicking other bassist when you can see their style on YouTube or other vid streaming sites, all well-and-good.
I think the real test is being able to play 'Juke Box' and just stream a station that plays a variety of music and you force yourself to play along. This develops speed, agility and the ability to 'hear' the key of the music. Ear training is very important, as is reading scores.
Besides learning to hear quickly and find the root of any song very fast will always pay off: you can't know them all but finding the correct box will always get you moving in the right direction.
My next thought is to get to know your frets in a Biblical way (wink-wink) and be able to find all the notes in other octaves, on other strings - anywhere up and down the neck.
Any time you hear a song - ANY song, your mind and fingers should automatically move to the right position. That's called 'chunking'. Let me explain.
The process within our brains that creates habits is a three-step loop.
First, there is a cue: a trigger that tells your brain to go into automatic mode and which habit to use.
Then there is the routine, which can be physical or mental or emotional.
Finally, there is a reward, which helps your brain figure out if this particular loop is worth remembering for the future.
Over time, this loop cue, routine, reward; cue, routine, reward becomes more and more automatic. The cue and reward become neurologically intertwined until a sense of craving emerges.
This is NOT really learning, but is establishing a library of loops that you will recognize as either fitting or not fitting a certain situation. It's that simple.
Learning, OTOH, is expanding musical areas diagnostically - maybe not clearly different from chunking, but it has subtle differences.
Learning is expansive; chunking is actually playing with technique after the learning curve has flattened.
Whats unique about cues and rewards, however, is how subtle they can be. Neurological studies have revealed that some cues span just milliseconds, eg: musical scales or octave or arpeggios.
These rewards then can range from the obvious (like the sugar rush that a morning doughnut habit provides) to the infinitesimal (like the barely noticeable but measurable sense of relief the brain experiences after successfully navigating the fretboard and staying in key).
Most cues and rewards, in fact, happen so quickly and are so slight that we are hardly aware of them at all. But our neural systems notice and use them to build automatic behaviors.
Habits however good or bad they may be, arent destiny they can be ignored, changed or replaced.
A bad habit, once noted and worked upon to change; can indeed be changed for the better or more correct perception as required. So you're not dead meat if you have learned a wrong way to hold a string or hold a pick. It can be fixed!
But its also true that once the loop is established and a habit emerges, your brain stops fully participating in decision-making. So unless you deliberately fight a habit unless you find new cues and rewards the old pattern will unfold automatically when and where you don't want it to show up!.
Again - in the lab experiments that were performed where trained rats (read: bass players) were to run down a maze until it was a habit, and then the maze was changed to extinguished the habit by changing the placement of the reward.
EG: hitting a Cb instead of a C was wrong, but it had been learned and now needed to be changed. This just required a new 'chunk' to overwrite the old, wrong 'chunk'.
Rats (or bass players) rely almost entirely on 'chunking' and grouping memory into performances - or why else try to learn a song in the first place?
I contend that this chunking can be put to use and individually be called up after a great number of 'chunks' are stored away for instant recall by any player.
It's called: 'repetitive practice' --- but it's repetitive practice with a mission; the reward is obvious.
.
Two years self taught this summer, so not exceedingly ahead of you, but here's my experience:
1) Technique is truly an individual thing. Though many books/lessons exist, the only skills you will develop yourself are your own. I am amazed how differently I hold my bass, place my fingers, and articulate the fingerboard now vs. when I first started.
2) Play anything. Listen to something and then play it back "by ear". Do basic things - don't jump in "too hard". I am actively learning Rush songs - albeit slowly - and that is fine - I cannot expect myself to play that quickly/accurately so soon. Conversely, I do a lot of basic patterns to develop better speed and timing.
3) Record. I just bought a TASCAM DP-008, WELL worth the money. Playback reveals a real sense of timing and articulation, like nothing else. I can clearly hear my faults.
4) Personally, and probably against my benefit, I don't use all of the fingers on my left hand - I tend to skip the ring finger. I don't think that's good, but my hands are large, and I find it easier to manipulate the pinkie.
...etc. Such a big topic. Be consistent and you will get better.
Chris
1) Technique is truly an individual thing. Though many books/lessons exist, the only skills you will develop yourself are your own. I am amazed how differently I hold my bass, place my fingers, and articulate the fingerboard now vs. when I first started.
2) Play anything. Listen to something and then play it back "by ear". Do basic things - don't jump in "too hard". I am actively learning Rush songs - albeit slowly - and that is fine - I cannot expect myself to play that quickly/accurately so soon. Conversely, I do a lot of basic patterns to develop better speed and timing.
3) Record. I just bought a TASCAM DP-008, WELL worth the money. Playback reveals a real sense of timing and articulation, like nothing else. I can clearly hear my faults.
4) Personally, and probably against my benefit, I don't use all of the fingers on my left hand - I tend to skip the ring finger. I don't think that's good, but my hands are large, and I find it easier to manipulate the pinkie.
...etc. Such a big topic. Be consistent and you will get better.
Chris
After 9 years on piano, you should be able to sight read. I think that you should get in with a good guitarist and drummer and just gain experience. Keeping tight rhytmically with the drums ( bass drum in particular) and following the chords of the guitarist. Learn stuff in a variety of ways. Some lines you can learn by ear, some by following the chord sequences - often scribbled out on scrap paper, riffs - you can work out with the guitarist. As for the guys who run you down - ignore them. They are probably seeing that you are becoming capable and will soon leave them behind in the ability stakes. I've known guys wait until they are almost in their 30s before they get on a hit song as bassist, drummer or guitarist. So - if you want some extra tips from me in wintry old England contact me through my website : Escutcheon Media - Home
Here's a simple book that I highly recommend.
Bass Logic - A Comprehensive Method For Learning Bass by Bill Edwards
It's a great way to start learning basic theory within the context of fingering patterns (practical application) which will help advance your understanding of how music is constructed, how the bass fits into the grand scheme of things, and what you should play.
You'll be surprised how far a good ear, a little chord knowledge, exposure to different music genres and lots of engaging practice can take you.
Lots of things influence one's knowledge and abilities but I do wish someone had shared the Bass Logic material with me when I was 14 instead of when I was 48 (after not playing for 20+ years). It really clicked for me. The bass patterns (the chord notes) really jump out at me now - when I listen and when I practice - which has simplified learning new bass lines and created new possibilities in creating my own lines.
Good luck out there - stay at it!!
Bass Logic - A Comprehensive Method For Learning Bass by Bill Edwards
It's a great way to start learning basic theory within the context of fingering patterns (practical application) which will help advance your understanding of how music is constructed, how the bass fits into the grand scheme of things, and what you should play.
You'll be surprised how far a good ear, a little chord knowledge, exposure to different music genres and lots of engaging practice can take you.
Lots of things influence one's knowledge and abilities but I do wish someone had shared the Bass Logic material with me when I was 14 instead of when I was 48 (after not playing for 20+ years). It really clicked for me. The bass patterns (the chord notes) really jump out at me now - when I listen and when I practice - which has simplified learning new bass lines and created new possibilities in creating my own lines.
Good luck out there - stay at it!!
I recorded my playing after 7 months since i held my bass in my hands for the first time...i was convinced that as for a self learning begginer i`m doing ok....
I decided to record myself after i read a post on this forum in "best advice you`ve ever got" section saying: record what you are playing and listen to it....so i did that...plugged my guitar directly to on board sound card got new drivers as latency was more then terrible...and i recorded.....i was terrified horrified depressed ....for an hour....then i started playing same song over and over again for the next 3 hours untill it sounded ...not perfect...but at least it wasn`t bad
What i want to sya is: record your music and listen to yourself...it`s a great way to find out how are you doing and where you are....
I decided to record myself after i read a post on this forum in "best advice you`ve ever got" section saying: record what you are playing and listen to it....so i did that...plugged my guitar directly to on board sound card got new drivers as latency was more then terrible...and i recorded.....i was terrified horrified depressed ....for an hour....then i started playing same song over and over again for the next 3 hours untill it sounded ...not perfect...but at least it wasn`t bad
What i want to sya is: record your music and listen to yourself...it`s a great way to find out how are you doing and where you are....
ibateur you are correct, I missed that excellent point.
I "file away" ( in my mind ) compliments, constructive criticism
matter of fact for the heck of it
i will mention the negatives ones that were helpful bc true
On sax- an older player said " you are playing that BALLAD ( jazz world ) too loudly, no dynamics" He was right ( a teen at the time ) I was imitating a John Coltrane approach- what did I know!
"monotonous" a great criticism- from counterpoint teacher
I always go back to this.
Then this teacher rewrote what I wrote, and his was way better than mine- the value of a great teacher!
A sax player with Duke Ellington heard my bass playing while walking on the bass... he said, either slightly accent 1 and 3 or 2 and 4. I think I changed that, to "make the rhythm danceable"! Dont just play evenly, volume wise. Make it pulse or swing, or rock to and fro. Feel the 2 inside the 4 etc
I played with a meteorically successful rock group on keys, the leader says to me "Play a triad not a seventh chord on his tune "Wooly Bully" ( a three chord wonder ) . I thought he was wrong till later on. A seventh IS a different sound than a simple triad. We never got along, but he was right!
Play along to records without charts or anything- good ear training.
Gig, gig, gig, and, oh yeah- GIG! By that I mean do fill-in gigs, church gigs, coffee shop gigs, open mic nights, etc. What helped me was being in college, playing for vocal performances of many different genres.
That's what I've got.
Gig, gig, gig, and, oh yeah- GIG! By that I mean do fill-in gigs, church gigs, coffee shop gigs, open mic nights, etc. What helped me was being in college, playing for vocal performances of many different genres.
That's what I've got.
Read through studybass.com. That will answer most of your questions about why a song is structured the way it is. Take a special interest in chord tones (i.e all the notes that build a chord) and then scales will come naturally.
Alway use a metronome until you become a human metronome. Personally, I think the role of a bass player is movement. With that being our primary job, playing bass like you're playing a drum beat is part of the way there. Practice timing and pluck your strings like you're playing breaks in a drum beat. The next part of movement is the choice of notes leading into and out of the basic sections of a song. While the guitarist, pianists, etc, are playing each chord, you should think of something that will sound good when "leading into" those chords. So your thought process should be "do something while anticipating the next chord" to create a natural flow for the song. I think you'll be surprised how much a difference 1 or 2 notes prior to a chord can make rather than just following the same pattern with everyone else. Once you can hear that, you're well on your way.
Alway use a metronome until you become a human metronome.
Personally, I think the role of a bass player is movement. With that being our primary job, playing bass like you're playing a drum beat is part of the way there. Practice timing and pluck your strings like you're playing breaks in a drum beat. The next part of movement is the choice of notes leading into and out of the basic sections of a song. While the guitarist, pianists, etc, are playing each chord, you should think of something that will sound good when "leading into" those chords. So your thought process should be "do something while anticipating the next chord" to create a natural flow for the song. I think you'll be surprised how much a difference 1 or 2 notes prior to a chord can make rather than just following the same pattern with everyone else. Once you can hear that, you're well on your way.I totally agree.
That is the main thing that helped me improve quickly when i first started to learn. I played piano in the school junior big band and when they wanted a new and younger pianist they offered me the bassists job. The peices werent much, Lots of one note per bar stuff, But it was a great way of helping me learn my way around the fretboard and basic technique.
