ASCAP is serious

[Music Attorney]

The real issue is that the streaming phenomenon has wiped out mechanical royalties as a source of income for recording artists. Refute that. Go ahead.

OK. Let's take Keith Urban's "We Were". Currently at 20M streams on Spotify. Keith is a recording artist. The streaming phenomenon has not wiped out mechanical royalties as a source of income for Keith on this song because he did not write it.

If you mean the "streaming phenomenon has wiped out mechanical royalties as a source of income for" songwriters, then we agree.

The problem here is that people (including some on this thread) conflate the issues and create more confusion than there already is. The distinction between artist income and songwriter income is important.

 

[Nevada Pete]

Great. So maybe you could send me a link?

I haven't interacted with Jeff much and it's been awhile, but I seem to remember him being a good dude.

It's not relevant to the discussion and I've previously explained why I don't mention them. And if that's meant as an attempt to undermine my credibility, then you fit in nicely with the current sport going on in Washington.

Sure, I try and dig a link up for you. It was a very disappointing situation but in that case, it did get rectified.

Yes, Jeffery is okay! He was looking for a producer for me when my wife got sick and I dropped out of the biz.

Of course, you can't and shouldn't mention your clients on the forum. That was just a misplaced comment on my part. I don't actually question your credibility.

 

[Nevada Pete]

OK. Let's take Keith Urban's "We Were". Currently at 20M streams on Spotify. Keith is a recording artist. The streaming phenomenon has not wiped out mechanical royalties as a source of income for Keith on this song because he did not write it.

If you mean the "streaming phenomenon has wiped out mechanical royalties as a source of income for" songwriters, then we agree.

The problem here is that people (including some on this thread) conflate the issues and create more confusion than there already is. The distinction between artist income and songwriter income is important.

Well, in this case, I was the guy who conflated then. I did confuse "recording artist" with "songwriter". So yes, this is an important distinction I failed to make. Obviously, I was wise to let Jeffery do this stuff for me!

 

[crazyBassClown]

Why would it go to the people playing?
They don’t hold the copyright— they’ve already agreed on a fee for their service.

Why would it go to someone who had nothing to do with writing any of the songs I am playing?
They don't hold the copyright either and have even less to do with the performance.

Have you read through this? Invalid Link Removed

You send us some basic details about the performance, including your setlist, and you get an OnStage payment with your normal ASCAP distribution. BAM.

That link seems to do nothing but confirm that I am right about the fees not actually having anything to do with the actual music being played in a typical bar situation, yet people continue to tell me I have no idea.
Unless I am sending my coverband setlist into ASCAP how is jimi hendrix getting his royalties. How is DIO getting royalties from my dio tribute shows?

 

[Music Attorney]

That link seems to do nothing but confirm that I am right about the fees not actually having anything to do with the actual music being played in a typical bar situation, yet people continue to tell me I have no idea.

Not sure how you come to that conclusion, but okay.

Unless I am sending my coverband setlist into ASCAP how is jimi hendrix getting his royalties. How is DIO getting royalties from my dio tribute shows?

Well, you may not send your set list, but others do. The collective information helps the PROs get an idea of usage. Also, ASCAP and all PROs use samples and surveys to help estimate the number of performances. In addition, PROs send people to bars to monitor usage. And so on.

There are billions and billions of performances of songs and there is no possible way to map every single one of those performances. However, if info gets back to ASCAP (e.g., via set lists, samples, surveys, in-bar attendance) that Jimi Hendrix songs are popular covers, then ASCAP can use that information to help determine a payout to Jimi’s publisher/estate. Is this perfect? Of course not, but as has been mentioned in this thread it would be prohibitively expensive to try and guarantee every performance of every song is captured in one database for ASCAP to use. And unless BMI, SESAC and others joined forces, then it would mean each of them had to create their own database.

As the saying goes: Don't let perfection be the enemy of good.

 

[crazyBassClown]

And this reinforces why it is likened to mob protection money.
You and the artists you represent send in performance claims which are then used to justify taking a piece of the money bars are forced to pay to allow cover bands to play songs even though most artists songs will never actually be covered in those bars.
Again you say you are not sure how I come to that conclusion, Please explain how you don't come to that conclusion, or stop pushing your own conflicted agenda with meaningless statements.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

If I were to open a bar, it would be a sports bar.

For heaven sakes, don’t decorate with team gear.... The NotFunLeague is just as bad.

 

[Music Attorney]

And this reinforces why it is likened to mob protection money. You and the artists you represent send in performance claims which are then used to justify taking a piece of the money bars are forced to pay to allow cover bands to play songs even though most artists songs will never actually be covered in those bars.
Again you say you are not sure how I come to that conclusion, Please explain how you don't come to that conclusion, or stop pushing your own conflicted agenda with meaningless statements.

It's only likened to mob protection money by those who find that a suitable description for their narrative. Perhaps ASCAP is also part of the Deep State?

My artist clients don't send in performance claims, but at some point your reading comprehension will improve and you'll understand why.

Bars are forced to pay a fee to allow cover songs to be played because that's the Copyright Law of the United States which you seem painfully unfamiliar with. It has nothing to do with how negotiated fees are distributed and to whom.

I will continue to push my conflicted agenda with meaningless statements so I suggest you just ignore them and I will do the same as to yours.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

For heaven sakes, don’t decorate with team gear.... The NotFunLeague is just as bad.

Yes. But it's a lot easier to figure out how much it will cost to show the games unlike ASCAP, BMI, etc

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ASCAP essentially has a "contact us" page and they'll get back to you with a price. Except you just told them that you should have a license simply by inquiring. I'm sure they share with each other for a finder's fee.

 

[crazyBassClown]

It's only likened to mob protection money by those who find that a suitable description for their narrative. Perhaps ASCAP is also part of the Deep State?

My artist clients don't send in performance claims, but at some point your reading comprehension will improve and you'll understand why.

The page you sent me to explain how it works says exactly that. or is a songwriter not an artist? Because ascap seems to think they are.
Have YOU read through this...

Have you read through this? Invalid Link Removed

ASCAP OnStage gets you paid when you play your music live.
Gigs, shows, concerts, hootenannies - whatever you call them, you can get royalties when you play your music live at an ASCAP-licensed venue of any size, with ASCAP OnStage. Here’s how it works:

Or of course we reach the obvious conclusion, you don't represent artists, the music part you represent is actually one of these organisations?

Bars are forced to pay a fee to allow cover songs to be played because that's the Copyright Law of the United States which you seem painfully unfamiliar with. It has nothing to do with how negotiated fees are distributed and to whom.

I will continue to push my conflicted agenda with meaningless statements so I suggest you just ignore them and I will do the same as to yours.

I was not discussing legal requirements, but how the money is distributed which I find completely mob like.

I notice you continue to completely ignore and divert attention away from this issue without providing acutal explanation yet continue to tell me i don't understand.

 

[gln1955]

I love it when people who don't have a clue argue with people who do this for a living.

 

[eb3mike]

Follow the Benjamins.

"ASCAP has announced that total revenues for 2018 topped $1.227 billion, an increase of 7% over the previous year. That's the second year in a row that ASCAP distributions crossed the $1 billion mark. $1.109 billion in royalties were paid to member songwriters, composers and publishers in 2018, up 10% year-over-year."
Got Royalty Payments? Here's ASCAP's 2018 Revenue Total | Radio & Television Business Report

 

[crazyBassClown]

I love it when people who don't have a clue argue with people who do this for a living.

I love it when people who do it for a living fail to give any details, and resort to name calling.
It makes it OBVIOUS they have something to hide.

 

[Slevage]

Why would it go to someone who had nothing to do with writing any of the songs I am playing?
They don't hold the copyright either and have even less to do with the performance.





That link seems to do nothing but confirm that I am right about the fees not actually having anything to do with the actual music being played in a typical bar situation, yet people continue to tell me I have no idea.
Unless I am sending my coverband setlist into ASCAP how is jimi hendrix getting his royalties. How is DIO getting royalties from my dio tribute shows?

Who gets the money from the fines?

 

[HolmeBass]

There are a number of collection and administrative hoops that come into play in order to answer your question, but assuming you have done all the right things to claim money owed to you, there is still the issue of whether the PROs will allocate some portion of the venue's license fee for the performance of your originals. Unless your songs have some traction, it's unlikely you'll see anything.

Nope.

You said "ASCAP/BMI really funnel all of that money to labels and large publishers." As I and others have tried to point out, this is about songwriters and publishers. see
Invalid Link Removed Therefore, no they (ASCAP/BMI) don't funnel all that money to labels.

You also said "they are not sending small-frys any of that club licensing money." This is not true. Please see previous post for link to claim this money from ASCAP.

Your first post definitely says if you’re a small fry, don’t even bother trying. Which is the truth. So no, they don’t pay small frys any money.

Don’t labels like to get in on the publishing? I think a number of deals are made that way. Therefore the labels do get money. And the PROs know who’s funding the recordings that “show up” for them. I bet it’s real cozy.

Do you work for ASCAP or BMI? You seem a bit defensive.

 

[Music Attorney]

Your first post definitely says if you’re a small fry, don’t even bother trying. Which is the truth. So no, they don’t pay small frys any money.

No, actually, it doesn’t. It addresses realistic expectations. Not that you shouldn’t try. Regardless, the conversation has been moving in out of originals all the way through the most popular songs of all time. The PROs operate in a way that's far from an exact science and I've tried to emphasize that. Admittedly, I'm answering this stuff quickly and if you think I got things mixed up or confused, then ignore them and rely on whatever info you think is best.

Don’t labels like to get in on the publishing? I think a number of deals are made that way. Therefore the labels do get money.

They may like to, but I don’t have any problem getting it excluded unless the band is desperate and willing to sign whatever is put in front of them (which I would pass on as a client anyway because if they manage to achieve success, they will be the first to say “How could you let us sign this?!?”).

I just looked at the 360 component to the last 3 deals I did and noticed the following:

Interscope – didn’t even ask for publishing.

WB – asked but eventually excluded it.

Island Def Jam – the only 360 component involved touring. The artist gave up no other income.

And you are right that some deals are made that way, but even if they are, it should only be a passive income interest. The label should not control your publishing in any way. And if the label doesn't control your publishing, then the money is not paid to them. The passive interest simply means the label is entitled to a commission on the income that the artist receives as a songwriter (just like what would be paid to a manager and other representatives). If you or artists you know are actually signing over publishing to a label, then it’s out of desperation or incompetence by their reps.

Are you aware that the PROs divide every dollar into 2 pots of money? 50 cents goes to the songwriter share and 50 cents goes to the publisher share (or co-publishers if there are more than one). And the PROs will NOT pay any portion of the songwriter share to anyone other than the songwriter (except under very, very limited circumstances that aren't relevant here). So when ASCAP or BMI collects $1 it absolutely does not go to the label unless the label is your publisher and if that’s the deal you or someone else is made, then you deserve to have the money paid to the label. At a minimum, payments to labels by the PROs represents an incredibly small portion of the PRO revenue stream and certainly is nowhere near “all”.

And the PROs know who’s funding the recordings that “show up” for them. I bet it’s real cozy.

More conspiracy stuff that’s impossible to disprove and a waste of time to try. My time in the business has included (and does include) working in the hip hop, rap, and urban world which can be more ugly than anything the mafia ever thought of or did. I’m very aware it’s an ugly business with greedy, unethical people in it. There’s also a negative side to it.

Do you work for ASCAP or BMI? You seem a bit defensive.

Not defensive. Just annoyed. It sounds like you and some others have a huge distrust or other problems with ASCAP or BMI. Fortunately, they are all voluntary and my suggestion is don't use them.

Moving on.

 

[Nevada Pete]

You should really consider not posting.

 

[Nevada Pete]

Back when songwriters (some of them) used to receive royalties from record sales of their tunes, they would file an application for a "reward". When that was granted (if it w

You should really consider not posting.

as granted), they would start receiving their checks.

I should consider not posting? Well, in the context of the original question including, but not limited to musicians collecting royalties when they are not top tier artists, the following ASCAP program is what I was talking about. Trying to, anyway. I was going to rewrite my post to make it more clear, but the "edit" button disappeared.

If this makes me ineligible to post on TB in your opinion sir, then report the post and state your case to the moderators.

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Keating then discusses how, in researching this, she came across a separate program which appears to be something of a lottery for independent artists for herself:

Looking online, I found an ASCAP program that I didn’t know about. Perhaps in an attempt to compensate for this incredible distribution of wealth to the wealthy, ASCAP has something called the “ASCAP Plus Cash Awards”. What are these amazing “awards”?“

For over 50 years, these special awards have recognized writer members each year for substantial performance activity in media and venues that are not included in performance surveys, or whose works have unique prestige value. The program has also been an inspiration to members just starting out to persevere in advancing their music careers. More than 4,200 songwriter and composer members of ASCAP received Plus Awards in their January 2012 disbursement…

”You have to submit an application to ASCAP to qualify for consideration (which I just did). The gist of it, as far as I can tell, is that if you are the winner of this black-box calculation ASCAP will make a special award to you of a portion of your own money. Awesome! I’ll let you know if I “win”.

Ah, I rest my case Your Honor. I hope I win.

 

[Mualk]

1) Go after them for what? They have licensing deals with the labels, and pay exactly what their contract requires. ASCAP/BMI aren't in the business of negotiating license deals between labels and content providers.

2) Spotify makes no money. They've lost tons of money every year they've existed.

ummm - yea - actually they ARE in the business of negotiating those deals. That’s their main thing.

 

[Mualk]

...and their "almost zero" is significantly more than terrestrial radio plays.

That is not true either
Terrestrial radio oays a much larger fee to ASCAP and BMI.
Look guys - we have to educate ourselves - or we are forever doomed to be taken advantage of **
(Yea, not an English major)