- Oct 6, 2009
- 151
- 294
- Disclosures
- My opinions may offend you. Get a thicker skin and grow the f up.
I'm old enough to remember ASCAP taking scalps at bars not having their jukebox licensed.
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ASCAP is serious
- Thread starter Slevage
- Start date
Ah, no. Not exactly. I say forget about what the PRO's may say they collected from terrestrial radio in 2012, for example. This is 2019 (almost 2020), and PRO's can say whatever they want. Just look at the hard facts.
The performance royalty for airplay (paid to the songwriter and / or to their publisher) as I recall is $0.06 per spin. The numbers you provided propose, "a songwriter/composer makes about $0.08 for every 1,000 streams on Pandora". According to your numbers, Pandora pays more or less a thousand times less per play than the performance royalty to be in rotation on terrestrial radio. That hardly constitutes parity between the radio airplay performance royalty and the stats you cited for "plays" on Pandora.
But the real damage comes from the loss of mechanical royalties, which as I recall are established by congress at 9.1 cents per copy of a sound recording. For example, if an album has 10 tunes and a songwriter has written all of them, each album sold would generate $0.91 of mechanical royalties paid to the song writer of those tunes per album sold (unless other arrangements have been made). No one argues that people are not purchasing albums, CD's or downloads very much anymore, if at all. This is because they can stream their music for a flat rate subscription fee instead.
The consensus is unequivocally that Spotify and like streaming subscriptions have wiped out the traditional airplay model ($0.06 per spin) and the mechanical royalty model (9.1 cents per copy of a sound recording sold) making it very difficult if not impossible to create a meaningful revenue stream that reaches the recording artist from airplay and record sales (CD's, downloads, etc). Touring and merchandise are the last traditional way to make money as a recording artist, and that's a tough way to go without record sales to back it up. Surely you are not challenging this well known fact. Are you? Because it's unchangeable.
Incidentally, the two largest terrestrial radio broadcasters in the United States, iHeartMedia, the operator of 850 stations and its rival Cumulus, the operator of 445 stations have filed for bankruptcy reorganization. Nashville has diminished to less than half it's former glory and reportedly, to give directions there people use landmarks such as where so and so's offices used to be, or where so and so studios used to be. The major labels have seriously diminished in size as well. If you haven't noticed, the entire music industry is on life-support. Just saying. Good luck with the release of your new material.
Good to know. But I wonder if the cost of processing this paperwork wouldn't far outweigh whatever might be owed to a band who is only claiming royalties for their own material performed maybe 12 times a year?
Sounds like a great idea, pay a heap of money to ascap, so they can give a little bit of it back, so you can play your gig. Nothing like adding further middle men to take a cut of the action.
There are several clubs I know of here that are like this. They host original music and the turnout is generally pretty abysmal. But that's of their own making. I guess they're content selling beer to the few friends and family who come out to support those bands a few times a year. I don't know.
You know, you do have to be careful here about assumptions. One of our members here made an assumption about something I talked about and, frankly, it was pretty wrong. I didn't bother calling him out on that because I don't need to announce to the world when someone else has messed up. People who know me personally know what my deal is. Him trying to make me look bad just made him look bad and lost him a potential ally.
Sometimes people really do have the experiences they claim to have.
It would be pennies, and not worth the cost of processing the paperwork. These are not charities. I don't know if they are paying whoever owns the rights to these other artists work. I would imagine so, but you'd have to ask them. I have no reason to believe otherwise, though many club owners have floated the rumor that the only person getting paid is Taylor Swift. They float this rumor to deflect criticism from musicians who might otherwise be upset about their lack of willingness to pay for the rights to use the music.
Sometimes, but it's rare. And he's calling for bars to shut down live music and then claiming that bands have no dog in the fight. That's my issue, bands do have a dog in the fight. I do want venues to pay, the licensing fees aren't that high. If the venues aren't paying licensing fees, report them. However, most people aren't going to cry a river if someone doesn't get 17 cents from our performance of a song written in a few hours back in 1967.
Hi crazyBassClown 
thx for your answer mate!
The sarcasm is strong in you!
Performing artists don' t have to pay anything!
Even when you play covers!!!
As long as you are hired to perform, it will be the venue that has to pay!
When you rent a place and sell tickets it' s up to you! (you are the venue = you pay)
When you play your own songs it' s up to you to decide to declare your gig or not.
Whoever hires you has to pay! Even when you are not a member!!!
When you are a member (ASCAP or in your case the Australian fee collectors)
and you play for someone else who payed, you will get a part of the fees.
Where is the problem?
You get something for your membership!
Of course when you play the only song that you ever wrote
only three times a year? (in your favorite bar in Walkabout Creek)
You might consider to pay for your membership!
ASCAP, BMI, etc never went after original bands
or poor street musicians who played "blowing in the wind"
Bob Dylan is certainly a member.
.
He won' t ask money from a poor artist.
ASCAP asks non musicians for money to give it to musicians.
I think it could be worse! (the sarcasm is strong in me)
may the bass be with you
Wise(b)ass
thx for your answer mate!
The sarcasm is strong in you!
Performing artists don' t have to pay anything!
Even when you play covers!!!
As long as you are hired to perform, it will be the venue that has to pay!
When you rent a place and sell tickets it' s up to you! (you are the venue = you pay)
When you play your own songs it' s up to you to decide to declare your gig or not.
Whoever hires you has to pay! Even when you are not a member!!!
When you are a member (ASCAP or in your case the Australian fee collectors)
and you play for someone else who payed, you will get a part of the fees.
Where is the problem?
You get something for your membership!
Of course when you play the only song that you ever wrote
only three times a year? (in your favorite bar in Walkabout Creek
)You might consider to pay for your membership!
ASCAP, BMI, etc never went after original bands
or poor street musicians who played "blowing in the wind"
Bob Dylan is certainly a member.
.
He won' t ask money from a poor artist.
ASCAP asks non musicians for money to give it to musicians.
I think it could be worse!
(the sarcasm is strong in me)may the bass be with you
Wise(b)ass
Bands playing in bars and clubs do have a dog in the fight, in the sense that if those venues aren't paying the fees, you might not be able to play there. But whose fault is that? Let's just look at this for a minute.
- ASCAP, BMI, etc. exist to protect the interests of their members, who are the creators of intellectual property that is routinely used in these clubs. As JRA said, they're not there to protect the interests of the average bar band.
- ASCAP, BMI, etc. can't take care of the interests of their members without a revenue stream.
- The clubs that are allowing the music to be played, and presumably making money due to the presence of live music, can choose to pay fees or not. If they don't, they can't legally allow bands to use the intellectual property belonging to others.
If a club doesn't pay the fees and you want to play covers there, you and the club are in a tough position. But how is that ASCAP's fault?
- Oct 18, 2012
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I don't think I ever said it's ASCAP's fault. Should a band request proof of licensing from a venue before playing there? That would go over well. If they were smart, they would join forces so there is one place to pay a licensing fee, make it easy for the venue and give them a QR code to print and hang on the wall as proof of licensing.
It's not just you. I'm old. When I was coming up in the bidness it was understood that these organizations were important to our livelihoods. Then the floodgates were opened to every basement and hobbyist band to jump onto local stages, and the club owners decided they could stop paying these fees and start acting like ASCAP was the mob. Rumors were born, people who don't know any better ate that like it was peanut butter because everyone loves a good conspiracy theory. And this is where we are now. People who ought to know better defending the guy who's digging into thier pockets. Because everyone's so hungry to play that they give up all their rights, and toss the people who write the music under the bus in the process.Hi crazyBassClown
thx for your answer mate!
View attachment 3580591
The sarcasm is strong in you!
Performing artists don' t have to pay anything!
Even when you play covers!!!
As long as you are hired to perform, it will be the venue that has to pay!
When you rent a place and sell tickets it' s up to you! (you are the venue = you pay)
When you play your own songs it' s up to you to decide to declare your gig or not.
Whoever hires you has to pay! Even when you are not a member!!!
When you are a member (ASCAP or in your case the Australian fee collectors)
and you play for someone else who payed, you will get a part of the fees.
Where is the problem?
You get something for your membership!
Of course when you play the only song that you ever wrote
only three times a year? (in your favorite bar in Walkabout Creek
You might consider to pay for your membership!
ASCAP, BMI, etc never went after original bands
or poor street musicians who played "blowing in the wind"
Bob Dylan is certainly a member.
.
He won' t ask money from a poor artist.
ASCAP asks non musicians for money to give it to musicians.
I think it could be worse!
may the bass be with you
Wise(b)ass
Makes me a little sad.
Maybe you didn't say it, but a whole lot of people do.
It would be nice if a new system would be put in place that made things a little easier, less old-fashioned, whatever is needed. But that will never stop the club owners from pretending these organizations are shaking them down like the mob, and it will never stop younger musicians from believing it.
Not really, because you've just twisted my suggestion that maybe I've been around the block into a thing where you're making it seem like I'm saying I'm better than you. And I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that I know people whose livelihoods depend on these revenue streams, and that it's not trivial, and that it's important to them, and that if you were one of them you might feel differently. They're not all living in mansions. Some are barely functional and disabled and the work that they've done in music is about the only meaningful work they've ever been able to do. But let's take dollars out of that guy's pocket because Taylor Swift might also be getting her fair share.
Look, I'm done. I know the marks of a closed mind and someone who doesn't care to hear about the actual experiences of being in this business, and this kind of back and forth is symptomatic. So please go on and argue with someone else here, and have a great day.
They didn't put themselves on those stages. The clubs stopped paying and started only caring about friends and family showing up to drink, and then everyone was in. That's how it works. Not blaming them, I'm in the same boat. Nobody's paying for music anymore and if we want to play, we do what we have to do.
