ASCAP is serious

[MultiScaleMale]

Not really, because you've just twisted my suggestion that maybe I've been around the block into a thing where you're making it seem like I'm saying I'm better than you. And I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that I know people whose livelihoods depend on these revenue streams, and that it's not trivial, and that it's important to them, and that if you were one of them you might feel differently. They're not all living in mansions. Some are barely functional and disabled and the work that they've done in music is about the only meaningful work they've ever been able to do. But let's take dollars out of that guy's pocket because Taylor Swift might also be getting her fair share.

Look, I'm done. I know the marks of a closed mind and someone who doesn't care to hear about the actual experiences of being in this business, and this kind of back and forth is symptomatic. So please go on and argue with someone else here, and have a great day.

Closed mind? Back atcha. C'ya.

 

[gln1955]

They didn't put themselves on those stages. The clubs stopped paying and started only caring about friends and family showing up to drink, and then everyone was in. That's how it works. Not blaming them, I'm in the same boat. Nobody's paying for music anymore and if we want to play, we do what we have to do.

I should have been more clear. Your statement seemed to directly link letting the amateurs play to not paying ASCAP/BMI fees. Around here, most bands are poorly paid, but AFIK most of those venues are paying their fees.

 

[LBS-bass]

They didn't put themselves on those stages. The clubs stopped paying and started only caring about friends and family showing up to drink, and then everyone was in. That's how it works. Not blaming them, I'm in the same boat. Nobody's paying for music anymore and if we want to play, we do what we have to do.

But one thing you'll never hear me doing is defending the club's decision to not pay their licensing fees, because I know what that means to people downstream. A lot of other people don't seem to care.

 

[LBS-bass]

I should have been more clear. Your statement seemed to directly link letting the amateurs play to not paying ASCAP/BMI fees. Around here, most bands are poorly paid, but AFIK most of those venues are paying their fees.

Well, it's true that there are a variety of things wrong with the live music scene but I don't blame the musicians for that. We all want to play.

 

[HolmeBass]

It would be pennies, and not worth the cost of processing the paperwork. These are not charities. I don't know if they are paying whoever owns the rights to these other artists work. I would imagine so, but you'd have to ask them. I have no reason to believe otherwise, though many club owners have floated the rumor that the only person getting paid is Taylor Swift. They float this rumor to deflect criticism from musicians who might otherwise be upset about their lack of willingness to pay for the rights to use the music.

I guess you missed the part where Family Man Barrett had to sue ASCAP for his Wailers royalties. It was in the millions of dollars.

 

[JimChjones]

2) Spotify makes no money. They've lost tons of money every year they've existed.

Their executives, on the other hand...

 

[LBS-bass]

I guess you missed the part where Family Man Barrett had to sue ASCAP for his Wailers royalties. It was in the millions of dollars.

There are always going to be cases like this. I don't know the particulars. Usually it has to do with mismanagement of funds, with things being misattributed to or by managers, bad contracts signed without legal advice, with writers not being given their fair share of writing credit. Sometimes it might have to do with an estate not being known as an heir. Or one potential heir fighting it out in court against a sibling. Without knowing the details, I won't get into a discussion about that particular case.

There are lots of musicians who have been taken advantage of by greedy management types. There have been suicides over this (see Badfinger). People not getting their royalties is nothing new, but it almost always relates to a record company claiming intellectual property rights that should have gone to the artist.

 

[JRA]

And he's calling for bars to shut down live music and then claiming that bands have no dog in the fight. That's my issue, bands do have a dog in the fight. I do want venues to pay, the licensing fees aren't that high. If the venues aren't paying licensing fees, report them. However, most people aren't going to cry a river if someone doesn't get 17 cents from our performance of a song written in a few hours back in 1967.

i haven't read once, in the entire thread, anyone posting that "bars should be shut down" --- you're making stuff up!

Ok, looks like you have your mind made up. Cool.

yes: we make up our minds. some of us test those 'made-up-minds' as we go. some don't. and some never go....yet their minds are always made up.

i don't want you to lose your gigs. but i would rather it happen to you than to me! and even if my quarterly checks are smaller these days (as in 'small dogs barking' ), i would rather get some recognition than none! good luck, man, because cats like you need a bunch of it! and TBH: some cats like you have it!*



* i love hanging with lucky people!

 

[crazyBassClown]

It would be pennies, and not worth the cost of processing the paperwork. These are not charities. I don't know if they are paying whoever owns the rights to these other artists work. I would imagine so, but you'd have to ask them. I have no reason to believe otherwise, though many club owners have floated the rumor that the only person getting paid is Taylor Swift. They float this rumor to deflect criticism from musicians who might otherwise be upset about their lack of willingness to pay for the rights to use the music.

Do the venues paying licensing fees send in a list of every song played on the radio in their establishment? Every song covered by the local cover bands? I really can't see that happening as it would simply be unmanageable.
So how exactly is it determined who royalties should be getting paid to by these agencies, and how is that at all refelctive of who deserves to be paid the royalties?

 

[JimChjones]

I guess you missed the part where Family Man Barrett had to sue ASCAP for his Wailers royalties. It was in the millions of dollars.

But from what I can make out that was not because ASCAP were malevolently withholding the money, but because the Wailers finances and ownership of rights was a complete chaotic mess, and there have been numerous other lawsuits related...

 

[LBS-bass]

i haven't read once, in the entire thread, anyone posting that "bars should be shut down" --- you're making stuff up!



yes: we make up our minds. some of us test those 'made-up-minds' as we go. some don't. and some never go....yet their minds are always made up.

i don't want you to lose your gigs. but i would rather it happen to you than to me! and even if my quarterly checks are smaller these days (as in 'small dogs barking' ), i would rather get some recognition than none! good luck, man, because cats like you need a bunch of it! and TBH: some cats like you have it!*



* i love hanging with lucky people!

One of my friends in particular who really needs his residuals told me the other day that his checks are getting a lot smaller. This is, I know, partly because of less air play, since the band he was in hasn't been popular for a few years now. I don't know if anyone's playing their music in clubs, but it's far from inconceivable. Every little bit counts for a guy like that.

I don't think anyone wants anyone to lose gigs. My lament, such as it is, is more along the lines of this: There used to be a time when we were all in the same corner, fighting for our rights as creative types and defending the rights of those among us who were creating the music we play. We had each others' backs. Now we're at each others' throats, and it makes zero sense to me. What happened?

 

[LBS-bass]

Do the venues paying licensing fees send in a list of every song played on the radio in their establishment? Every song covered by the local cover bands? I really can't see that happening as it would simply be unmanageable.
So how exactly is it determined who royalties should be getting paid to by these agencies, and how is that at all refelctive of who deserves to be paid the royalties?

Apparently there is a reporting form that can be sent in, but I have never been a club owner or an ASCAP or BMI member, so I don't know how that works. Someone else here could probably give you better info on that.

 

[crazyBassClown]

Apparently there is a reporting form that can be sent in, but I have never been a club owner or an ASCAP or BMI member, so I don't know how that works. Someone else here could probably give you better info on that.

So the answer is probably not, and that is where the Taylor swift comment comes from. The money doesn't go to the deserving artists but whoever ASCPAP/BMI thinks deserve it in most cases. That is my issue with the whole thing.

 

[51PRI]

i haven't read once, in the entire thread, anyone posting that "bars should be shut down" --- you're making stuff up! ...

No, that actually was said, a couple of pages back. See belowVVV

If enforcement of artist's rights shuts down most music venues in America, I'm more than OK with that. People should be paid for their work. Period.

People should be paid. I agree. But we need places to play, too. Bars just need to pay up. That's the solution.

They still don’t get paid.

They get paid "some." It may not be a lot, but it's something.

...These are songwriters, composers, music publishers, authors and of course performing artists

who play their own songs.(or songs that are "public domain" e.g. classic)

They pay royalties to their members, who know exactly how to declare their gigs....

Right. I work with a local guy who is with BMI and he turns in every performance he/we do of his own songs, and gets some pay. I don't know how much, but it is something. AFAIK the only way bars and clubs can legally bypass paying ASCAP and BMI is to make the bands play only songs in the public domain.

 

[JimChjones]

So how exactly is it determined who royalties should be getting paid to by these agencies, and how is that at all refelctive of who deserves to be paid the royalties?

In the UK at least all this information is publicly detailed on their websites. Have you looked for it?

 

[Mike Whitfield]

They are busting all kinds of businesses.

I do contract work for 71 offices in Eastern NC. Several of them got busted for playing music throughout the office where "the public" could hear it. Word came down from "on high" that they could no longer play any music throughout the business. They have to be sneaky. If a receptionist wants to play music behind her from a speaker "for herself", and the public may hear it in his/her vicinity, then OK. But they can't play music through ceiling speakers without paying BMI/ASCAP fees.

Spotify and YouTube pay almost zero to artists. Unless you fill stadiums, you're going broke. My kids were talking about some boy who is a "YouTube star" with millions of followers. They Googled up his net worth, which turned out to he roughly a quarter million (5 years into his "success" on YouTube).

Artists gotta make a buck somewhere. We don't "deserve" free music.

My advice.... If you're a fan of an artist, BUY their work. BUY IT. Order a CD. BUY a download of their albums. PAY them for the joy their music brings you.

If you listen to hours and hours of music a month on Spotify or YouTube (or any number of streaming platforms), and don't BUY any music from your favorite artists, you are part of the problem, not the solution.

Edited to fix half a dozen typos.

Well said. We're extremely fortunate that due to YouTube and Spotify, we're able to tell if we like an album or song before we buy it. No more one-hit turds we never play; we can even buy a single song. But if we do that instead of buying it, that can't last. There will be only a relative few very popular acts whose huge multinationals can track every use of their music and extract payment.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

They get paid "some." It may not be a lot, but it's something.

I was replying to someone that was saying that the live music should be shut down. That’s fine, but then they still don’t get paid.

 

[crazyBassClown]

AFAIK the only way bars and clubs can legally bypass paying ASCAP and BMI is to make the bands play only songs in the public domain.

Adele Leaves Performance Rights Organization BMI for SESAC (EXCLUSIVE)

"Adele joins Bob Dylan, Neil Diamond, RUSH, Zac Brown, Lady Antebellum on the SESAC roster,"

Seems like you can play quite a bit of music that isn't BMI / ASCAP.
Does adele get her cut from a venues BMI fees?
Does a venue hosting only Bob dylan, adele, Neil diamond and Rush tributes still need to pay their ascap fees?

In the UK at least all this information is publicly detailed on their websites. Have you looked for it?

Well, I just looked on How music royalties are calculated
and it doesn't actually answer this question, for music in bars or cover bands.
Royalties for use by broadcasters is OK but we are discussing bar fees here.

 

[JimChjones]

Well, I just looked on How music royalties are calculated
and it doesn't actually answer this question,

That's 'cos you're looking at the wrong society.Try reading through this lot: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Fortunately PRS and PPL have finally got their act together and issue joint licences, but to receive money you still have to be signed up to both.

 

[crazyBassClown]

That's 'cos you're looking at the wrong society.Try reading through this lot: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Fortunately PRS and PPL have finally got their act together and issue joint licences, but to receive money you still have to be signed up to both.

From looking at that link, unles you report the usage of your music, you won't get the royalties in a live venue. I would much rather get the royalties directly from the venue than have it paid to a third party who then takes their cut and passes a little back to me.

Also how exactly do the bands I cover get the royalties for the songs I play in my local cover band? I can't see jimi hendrix's estate or van morrison reporting my usage of their song.
Which is the fees we are discussing here.