ASCAP is serious

[MultiScaleMale]

i'm not barking here --- i'm defending the right of a songwriter to join an organization which might look out for his/her interests in the pursuit of compensation for creativity. i'll assume that you don't have the experience to which i'm referring. and if you do: better luck on your next project!

so, you didn't answer my question: what kind of material are you covering? thanks.

That’s fine. I can send you a set list if you really want. But this “no dog” argument is silly. If there are no bands playing covers, there are no live venues. Nobody wants to hear originals for the most part. No covers, no licenses needed, no revenue for the rights holders.

 

[JRA]

this “no dog” argument is silly

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Ok man, good luck.

 

[JRA]

If there are no bands playing covers, there are no live venues

if you define and limit "live venues" to the local bar = you're probably right, right?

 

[51PRI]

This is nothing new. When I first started playing in clubs in the late 1970s, most venues had ASCAP and BMI stickers on their doors to indicate that they were paying members. Somewhere along the way, many venue owners decided to not pay. Venues are not even allowed to have a radio playing with paying fees.
...

What if a venue is playing Sirius/XM which they pay for? I know it's not ASCAP or BMI, but, what about sports bars who have multiple TV's on?

most of the bar owners around here are more broke than cheap.

Maybe they're in the wrong business?

Much like the record companies, most of the money doesn't actually make it to the artists though.

Even if only a small amount makes it to the creators, isn't that better than none?

$4000 annually????? That's insane!!

Only $10.90 a day. If $10.90 a day causes you to shut your doors then you have more problems than paying for music, in my opinion.

...How would you feel if you found out that someone or some band was using something that you created so that they could profit? The best thing to do is just follow ASCAP and BMI requirements.

Exactly! If you were ever part of a songwriting team and one person in the team claimed themselves as the sole creator you would understand.

 

[fhm555]

Great idea.

Some of us enjoy playing but just don't have whatever that inner talent is to write songs. So being a cover band is our option and I'd hate to lose that part of my life.

+1

 

[MultiScaleMale]

What if a venue is playing Sirius/XM which they pay for? I know it's not ASCAP or BMI, but, what about sports bars who have multiple TV's on?

Pandora for Business has a player and provides the licensing rights for a little over $30 / month the last I checked. Simply paying for Sirius does not give you performance license which is needed to play in a bar / restaurant / business. Sports bars also have a complicated formula unless you fall into the very small bar category which is exempt from licensing, but it's a very small bar and there are limits on the number of screens. Of course we know that a lot of places simply run their local HD broadcast on the screens.

 

[arbiterusa]

If enforcement of artist's rights shuts down most music venues in America, I'm more than OK with that. People should be paid for their work. Period.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

If enforcement of artist's rights shuts down most music venues in America, I'm more than OK with that. People should be paid for their work. Period.

They still don’t get paid.

 

[arbiterusa]

They still don’t get paid.

Well, yes, actually they do (I get my miniscule checks every quarter from a project I was involved with back in the 1990s).

But even if I didn't get paid, there is this fundamental tenet of civilization and THE underlying principle of law: the failure of a law to produce the result you want is no excuse for not obeying that law.

 

[Ostie]

CD sales are down to the point where more vinyl sold than CDs last year. Downloads are $.99 per song, and lots of music is pirated.

In the old days, artists made their money from album sales and toured to support and sell albums. If the tour lost money, they made it up in album sales. Nowadays, artists make their money from touring because revenue from album sales and downloads are much slimmer So ASCAP/BMI is trying to drum up revenue for the artists by cracking down on licensing. Not taking a stand either way here, just explaining what is going on.

 

[Wisebass]

Hi JRA

Makes me always angry that folks that don 't know a ,

blame ASCAP, BMI or other fee collectors for not getting payed.

That' s like blaming trade unions (without being member) for not receiving a fair wage.

performance rights organizations are for creators (songwriters) of music. they don't care about protecting hobbyists posing as 'artists' or 'musicians' on the weekend.

And they certainly do not collect money for bands that don' t declare taxes!

Associations like ASCAP are "non profit"!!! This can' t be told often enough.

Whatever they do is decided by their members for their members!

These are songwriters, composers, music publishers, authors and of course performing artists

who play their own songs.(or songs that are "public domain" e.g. classic)

They pay royalties to their members, who know exactly how to declare their gigs.

They also provide legal protection (copyright) for their members.


To do this they have to collect fees. That' s a big problem! Only bad guys want "protection money"!


Nobody wants to pay for music anymore. Nobody wants to be a member

of that kind of "bad" association, who rips off poor people

to feed all those greedy, lazy musicians who expect to make a living with their music.


(sarcastic part): Nobody needs these bad bad ASCAP guys!

Let' s be good instead!

Let' s pay to play (help those poor venue owners and promoters)

let' s pay to write (publish our songs without copyright on YouTube

and help someone without talent to become rich)


Okay we do that already. And it doesn' t help? What a surprise!

Music is not accepted as work because we have fun. (Nothing new!)

Must be ASCAP' s fault!


end of rant

Wise(b)ass

 

[arbiterusa]

Its why several of the places we play demand 100% original. We aren't supposed to ever drop a cover into the set. I've never seen bands chastised for doing it, but the agreement is original only.

After the ASCAP/BMI stings in the early 1990s in the SF Bay Area, the venues that decided to stay open put this into practice. Wasn't a problem for me as we only did originals anyway, and the cover bands - the really good ones - went to doing one-off corporate events for a lot more money than they'd ever made working in bars and clubs.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Well, yes, actually they do (I get my miniscule checks every quarter from a project I was involved with back in the 1990s).

But even if I didn't get paid, there is this fundamental tenet of civilization and THE underlying principle of law: the failure of a law to produce the result you want is no excuse for not obeying that law.

I’m not talking about not following the laws. I think bars should pay for performance rights, but I do think the system is flawed. But if you want to shut down live music, then that stream of revenue dries up.

 

[JRA]

Makes me always angry that folks that don 't know a , blame ASCAP, BMI or other fee collectors for not getting payed. That' s like blaming trade unions (without being member) for not receiving a fair wage.

wise: your rants are better than my rants! probably bigger, too!

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Demanding 100% originals is not entirely safe. If those songs are published through BMI, etc, the venue still needs to pay a performance fee.

 

[Wisebass]

probably bigger, too!

Now I can read yours without my glasses.

Wise

 

[JRA]

 

[Wisebass]

Hi arbiterusa

After the ASCAP/BMI stings in the early 1990s in the SF Bay Area, the venues that decided to stay open put this into practice. Wasn't a problem for me as we only did originals anyway, and the cover bands - the really good ones - went to doing one-off corporate events for a lot more money than they'd ever made working in bars and clubs.

I am surprised! Looks like ASCAP did not do their job!

Or the bar owners cheated because they thought the bands would not declare their gigs?

They (ASCAP and others) have the right to collect fees even when the bands are original bands!

Even when the bands aren' t ASCAP members!!!!! (your problem when you are not a member!)

Here in Europe it' s common practice that a bar only sends a song list to the fee collecting association when

they have a coverband (they try to cheat too!)

Pro original bands will send the whole paperwork together with the contract.

Hobby bands that don' t make enough money to pay taxes won 't declare their gig.

Because fee collecting associations work with tax authorities!

greetings

Wise(b)ass

 

[PauFerro]

This is why we started Today's Jazz Book at https://newjazz.org . Places around where I gig would get hit by BMI. If you have a book of songs that are all licensed without royalties required, they leave you alone.

This works for jazz, anyway. For rock it would be harder because the average listener doesn't always know the names of the jazz songs, they just like the ambiance (unless a hard core jazz audiophile). Even then, jazz listeners tend to be more open-minded about the genre and don't necessarily expect to hear classic favorites. If they do,they always seem to ask for the Girl from Ipanema or Summertime in my town.

So, if you want to keep live opportunities for jazz in place, please submit good compositions to Today's Jazz Book! @Groove Doctor , @Steven Ayres , @Sam Sherry and @Tonysuarezbass and I are in fact trying to address this problem directly.

I had a BMI rep crash one of my gigs and I told him it was all our own original music and he left us alone. It works.

We even had one artist who had registered his songs with BMI. The BMI license says you can enter into other licenses if you notify BMI within a certain amount of time, and we did that once too. So there are ways around this for small venues -- many of which shut down or simply decide not to host live music when ASCAP and BMI comes calling.