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Avatar 3 way 15/6/tweet

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#281
Lomo, I gotta say, if you think your cab's tonality is that much like the Avatar, probably not. I don't think the Avatar has a variable L-pad on the mid driver for starters, and that has a lot more counterproductive effect on things than most realize (not an issue with tweeters so much though).

Secondly, the mid driver the Avatar has is a lot different in character. Stock and OEM Eminence closed-basket drivers I have seem to break up fairly early.

Lumping all these "alternative" designs into one category sonically is a huge mistake. As I said earlier, there is actually a lot more variance that can be designed in with additional components. As you say, cost has influence too.
 
#282
lomo said:
Why word it this way:rollno:?

Would "I have to disagree here" not have worked? Like the TB rules say, it's all about tone:p.
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No problem. I'm out of this discussion anyway, since it is a bit off topic to the Avatar thread. I'm sure, again, for many, this Avatar execution will work wonderfully for some players, just like their 210, 410, 112, etc., etc. The right tool for the right job!
 
#283
lomo said:
Why word it this way:rollno:?

Would "I have to disagree here" not have worked? Like the TB rules say, it's all about tone:p.
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Read Ken's posts and tell me I wasn't showing restraint. Admonish equally or not at all. I am not an EE, BTW - and people who pretty much say all EEs are deaf bastids who have a stake in this one way or another are not only foolish, but they need Teh Spanking.

I did directly address your posts and concerns, did I not? I hate having to go through the false smokescreen dichotomy of "golden ear boy versus those nasty deaf EEs with money to soon line their pockets" arguments all too often.

I like bass and I like speakers and amps. That's all I'm doing here.
 
#284
Ahh so much drama here. Personally I prefer the blunt, tellin it like it is style responses. Unfortunately, not everyone has the thick skin that some of us do.

It looks like this cab's design is a big step in the right direction. I think the fanned fret analogy is spot on. Proponents will never convince everyone, and not everyone wants, or knows they want, to utilize the clear advantages, no matter how many times you show them compelling evidence. I know I've found my holy grail though, and have been singing from the mountain-tops ever since.
 
#285
KJung said:
No problem. I'm out of this discussion anyway, since it is a bit off topic to the Avatar thread.
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One has to wonder why you were ever in it. As your opinions are all subjective and you've never heard the cab then you have no basis for an opinion. As for the EE types you consistently disdain, never forget what you'd be playing were it not for EE types.
washtub_bass.jpg
 
#287
billfitzmaurice said:
One has to wonder why you were ever in it. As your opinions are all subjective and you've never heard the cab then you have no basis for an opinion. As for the EE types you consistently disdain, never forget what you'd be playing were it not for EE types
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No disdain for EE types at all (and of course, most EE types are not even EE's).

And, I have played quite a few executions of this general cab design, and have actually gigged two of the three original production models of this general design (EA VL and Acme).

Again, making my living as a scientist results in me having great respect for data and accurate methodology and evaluation.

I would never question a discussion about a Prius getting great gas mileage and why. I just wouldn't go about blathering that it is the only car anyone should drive given a rather narrow number of variables being considered, and in general TOTALLY ignoring any discussion of a potential users requirements or other positives and negatives across different automobile executions.

Any time I see an absolute statement like 'this class of cab will totally bury this class of cab' without taking into account the variation across different executions, and also the tonal impact that might interact in a particularly positive or negative way the rest of individual's signal chain, I tend to, well, kind of look for another reason why one would ever make such a statement.
 
#289
This guy's right hand placement is never gonna get the most out of that washtub.

billfitzmaurice said:
One has to wonder why you were ever in it. As your opinions are all subjective and you've never heard the cab then you have no basis for an opinion. As for the EE types you consistently disdain, never forget what you'd be playing were it not for EE types.
washtub_bass.jpg
Click to expand...
 
#293
KJung said:
Any time I see an absolute statement like 'this class of cab will totally bury this class of cab' without taking into account the variation across different executions, and also the tonal impact that might interact in a particularly positive or negative way the rest of individual's signal chain, I tend to, well, kind of look for another reason why one would ever make such a statement.
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I can make that statement because I know that no mainstream manufacturer makes a 4x10 with displacement equal to that of the 3015LF; most run about 2/3 that. That's one of the niceties of being an EE type, though by profession I'm not an EE, I'm an Acoustical Engineer.
 
#294
billfitzmaurice said:
I can make that statement because I know that no mainstream manufacturer makes a 4x10 with displacement equal to that of the 3015LF; most run about 2/3 that. That's one of the niceties of being an EE type, though by profession I'm not an EE, I'm an Acoustical Engineer.
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That's even worse than an EE - you don't even get a striped cap for that!

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#296
To be fair, displacement + sensitivity both have to be taken into account. The 3015LF does have a half-octave or so more low end extension and sensitivity fairly close to a lot of 4x10s.

That said a 4x10 @ 4 ohms with deltalites or equivalent will be a lot louder with the same wattage as a 3015LF, up to the ~400w mark or so.

Anyway, something people really forget is that most vendors out there do not use drivers as nice as deltalites, so using them is really best case, not "average." Avatar's deltalites give up some sensitivity even for their extended xmax, IIRC.
 
#297
rp,

the Avatar OEM DeltaliteIIs are less sensitive than stockers. And The 4-ohm 3015LF is likely to be a tad more sensitive. And the 6" mid is pretty sensitive. And as you know, once you put this in the perceptual context of a band mix, the ranges of the enclosure output that are less disputed by the masking of others also plays into this. Not to mention the DISPERSION once again (oops I just did) which allows one cab to actually seem louder than the other, off-axis - and in summed room response.

All just grist really. People hearing it in their bands will either get it or they won't.
 
#299
KJung said:
Makes sense, and the above is why I tend to not try to compare entire classes of cabs with very little information to base that comparison on.

The bigger point IMO is that we get into big trouble if we pick only a few variables (much less one, god help us) to define 'better or worse' in an absolute sense with a system as complex as the entire bass guitar backline signal chain, and without taking into account the playing style, tone goal, etc. of the player.

It's like only looking at horsepower on a car, and then picking the 'best one' for everyone (well, it goes faster!:D)
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Well, to be fair again, the variables people who are into high excursion woofers talk about are quantifiable, and the variables you talk about are not quantifiable generally. Tone can be quantified, but it often isn't.

And we're talking about a lot of variables, not just horsepower. What we're doing is comparing:

size/weight (cargo space)
displacement (horsepower)
sensitivity (speed)
polar response (handling)
low end extension (torque)
tone (color)

One of these is not like the others ;)
 
#300
rpsands said:
Well, to be fair again, the variables people who are into high excursion woofers talk about are quantifiable, and the variables you talk about are not quantifiable generally. Tone can be quantified, but it often isn't.

And we're talking about a lot of variables, not just horsepower. What we're doing is comparing:

displacement (horsepower)
sensitivity (speed)
polar response (handling)
low end extension (torque)
tone (color)

One of these is not like the others ;)
Click to expand...

I was commenting only on Bill's post, using just displacement to define the whole system. Makes no sense to me. I erased my post since this just seems to go on and on.
 
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