Avatar 3 way 15/6/tweet

[Sundogue]

+1 and good post. That's just the way I view it... a voicing that some will like and others won't... a nice additional choice to more traditional cabs that some will really dig, and the improved dispersion in the upper mids and lower treble below the tweeter is definitely a bonus. No argument there! I surely notice this impact with Duke's cab, and also listening to all the LDS executions I've played in various rooms and on and off axis (although it surely isn't 'night and day' versus my 212 cabs IMO and IME).

Nice that Avatar has an amazingly priced, immediately available version of this type of design in their product portfolio. And that introductory deal is just stupid good... my gosh. I don't particularly dig the 'evangalism' of this design as being the one and only way to get a good even tone out in the room, but it surely is a valid way to get there if the tone profile of the box meets the other requirements that a player might have regarding tone, volume, low end response, etc., etc.

We've discussed this before and I agree that a dedicated mid isn't the only way to go. There are many other valid executions of design that deliver mids/upper mids and to some the sound is preferable without a dedicated mid driver. But it really depends on just how full range the woofer is in the first place. There are many that utilize a good full range woofer and combine it with a good tweeter. But there are also many that don't use very good full range woofers and also use very cheap tweeters leaving that hole in there where those mids are missing no matter how much EQ'ing one does.

Any speaker that does the lows VERY well, will not be a great full range woofer. So once a cab is built with a speaker that does the lows very well and uses no mid driver, but only a tweeter, that's where the mids suffer. That isn't really a preference, but just poor execution and/or design.

So long as companies don't try to cheap out, there are viable alternative designs that give those mids very well without a dedicated mid...and then it's just a matter of tonal preference as to whether one likes a more flat response or one that accentuates certain frequencies more.

 

[KJung]

We've discussed this before and I agree that a dedicated mid isn't the only way to go. There are many other valid executions of design that deliver mids/upper mids and to some the sound is preferable without a dedicated mid driver. But it really depends on just how full range the woofer is in the first place. There are many that utilize a good full range woofer and combine it with a good tweeter. But there are also many that don't use very good full range woofers and also use very cheap tweeters leaving that hole in there where those mids are missing no matter how much EQ'ing one does.

Any speaker that does the lows VERY well, will not be a great full range woofer. So once a cab is built with a speaker that does the lows very well and uses no mid driver, but only a tweeter, that's where the mids suffer. That isn't really a preference, but just poor execution and/or design.

So long as companies don't try to cheap out, there are viable alternative designs that give those mids very well without a dedicated mid...and then it's just a matter of tonal preference as to whether one likes a more flat response or one that accentuates certain frequencies more.

Totally +1. And I agree, just like with the original EA VL's and Acme's, the mid driver ALLOWS you to use a woofer that can thunder down low. Of course, as you point out, thundering down low is not a goal of some players.

Also, quite a few two way cabs using more traditional tweeters also seem VERY evenly voiced WITHIN THEIR DESIGNED FREQUENCY RANGE, so there are also other ways to get to a 'relatively' even/flat voicing without going the subwoofer/midrange type design.

I personally found a pretty good compromise for my 'tone of choice' with Duke's little Thunderchild cab (and obtained that bit better off axis response in the upper mids to boot!). The combination of that super duper 12 with Duke's revoicing to make it work very nicely with a smaller box (and provide a nice tight low end that I prefer versus the hugeness of some other executions), and the much lower than typical crossover point and that big horn give me a tone very similar to some of my more traditional tweeter/mid driver woofer cabs, but in a MUCH smaller, lighter box, that still has that bit of pop and grind and sizzle that I like so much.

Lot's of ways to 'skin this cat'.

This Avatar box seems like just a great way to experiencing this sort of design by just picking up the phone. Pretty cool!

 

[BurningSkies]

Totally +1. And I agree, just like with the original EA VL's and Acme's, the mid driver ALLOWS you to use a woofer that can thunder down low. Of course, as you point out, thundering down low is not a goal of some players.

Also, quite a few two way cabs using more traditional tweeters also seem VERY evenly voiced WITHIN THEIR DESIGNED FREQUENCY RANGE, so there are also other ways to get to a 'relatively' even/flat voicing without going the subwoofer/midrange type design.

I personally found a pretty good compromise for my 'tone of choice' with Duke's little Thunderchild cab (and obtained that bit better off axis response in the upper mids to boot!). The combination of that super duper 12 with Duke's revoicing to make it work very nicely with a smaller box (and provide a nice tight low end that I prefer versus the hugeness of some other executions), and the much lower than typical crossover point and that big horn give me a tone very similar to some of my more traditional tweeter/mid driver woofer cabs, but in a MUCH smaller, lighter box, that still has that bit of pop and grind and sizzle that I like so much.

Lot's of ways to 'skin this cat'.

This Avatar box seems like just a great way to experiencing this sort of design by just picking up the phone. Pretty cool!

I enjoy the thunder from down-under in my sound. The nice thing is that a 3015LF can provide that perfectly in the correct size box (I don't even have to boost lows on my amp or my bass any more!).

Now, we all know that if you have all those lows, many times you're just overpowering the mix and making a washy mess. I find that the 6" mid takes care of keeping the note definition, the attack and 'edge', but doesn't add any of the really bright stuff that can be interpreted as harsh. It comes off as more full bodied. I DO find that the wide dispersion angle helps in the room. Its nice to have the same bass tone no matter where you're standing in the crowd, and I really credit that mid speaker, since again, it is presenting more sound than you really think it will (especially if your cab is crossed over in the 600-800hz range).

Its not the answer for everyone, but I certainly don't want to go back. Besides, with the extended scale of a Dingwall and the clean clear wide range of a 2-way cab system I can stake my place in the "how does he get so low yet clear" camp.

I think the Avatar should open a lot of eyes and I think that maybe TB will realize that this type of design isn't elitist as many would like us to believe.

 

[abarson]

Seventeen pages of chat, and still no user review?
I think this is a win for the longest thread on a product that no-one has tried, but who's keeping score?
Bash away: I'm sitting on the fence until someone else gives us their insight on the cab.

 

[Aram]

Seventeen pages of chat, and still no user review?
I think this is a win for the longest thread on a product that no-one has tried, but who's keeping score?
Bash away: I'm sitting on the fence until someone else gives us their insight on the cab.

To be fair, this was only just released, right?

How about a roll call for who's got one on order? I really would if it was lighter...just a little too bulky and heavy for subway/bus/cab NYC use, unfortunately.

 

[BurningSkies]

Seventeen pages of chat, and still no user review?
I think this is a win for the longest thread on a product that no-one has tried, but who's keeping score?
Bash away: I'm sitting on the fence until someone else gives us their insight on the cab.

Bash: the cab was only posted on the Avatar site about a week ago. Give it another week or so, mr. impatient.

 

[KJung]

I enjoy the thunder from down-under in my sound. The nice thing is that a 3015LF can provide that perfectly in the correct size box (I don't even have to boost lows on my amp or my bass any more!).

Now, we all know that if you have all those lows, many times you're just overpowering the mix and making a washy mess. I find that the 6" mid takes care of keeping the note definition, the attack and 'edge', but doesn't add any of the really bright stuff that can be interpreted as harsh. It comes off as more full bodied. I DO find that the wide dispersion angle helps in the room. Its nice to have the same bass tone no matter where you're standing in the crowd, and I really credit that mid speaker, since again, it is presenting more sound than you really think it will (especially if your cab is crossed over in the 600-800hz range).

Its not the answer for everyone, but I certainly don't want to go back. Besides, with the extended scale of a Dingwall and the clean clear wide range of a 2-way cab system I can stake my place in the "how does he get so low yet clear" camp.

I think the Avatar should open a lot of eyes and I think that maybe TB will realize that this type of design isn't elitist as many would like us to believe.

+1 I have what I think is a pretty good demo of one of these types of cabs (15/6/1), where I demonstrate the sound of each of the three components (15, 6, and tweeter) crossed over at 800hz and 3.5K. You can really hear the impact of the mid driver (in my clip, the very impressive 18Sound mid driver), and the very full, open low end. Really nice and I assume the Avatar will be in a similar tone universe.

I again gigged mid driver cabs for MANY years (EA VL210, and then a 2 x Acme B210 stack), so I very much understand what these designs are. Again, very nice... although I've personally moved away from them. However, these newer designs with the much more powerful mid drivers that are now available, and IMO the better quality and spec'd low end driver really take these designs a far way ahead of the originals... so +1.

The clip is the first one that comes up if you click on my Youtube link below if anyone is interested again in at least getting a data point on this type of design. Again, most of the clips I've heard have mainly been from guys who are mostly about low end, etc. My more 'fullrange tone' (relatively bright bass with roundwound strings, and a reasonably transparent, clean, full range head) gives a bit better feel for the full range capability of this basic design.

Never viewed this design as 'elitist' (whatever that means), just not a total solution for every single player's goals... that's my only point

 

[BurningSkies]

Never viewed this design as 'elitist' (whatever that means), just not a total solution for every single player's goals... that's my only point

[FONT=&quot]Let’s be honest…in the past year or so, if someone asks for cab advice and someone suggests a 2 or 3 way cab solution, there’s been a knee jerk reaction from many of the traditional 4x10, 2x10, 2x12 etc. cab owners, and it usually ends in the sci-tech-spec v. feels-good-use-it argument. People who use “traditional” cabinets seem to think that we’re speaking different languages or have different goals, which really we don’t. Maybe the fact that Avatar can present this cab for the 400 dollar price point will encourage some of the people who have acted like fEarful/Barefaced/A-K have a snoot factor will realize that it’s just a damn good way to voice a bass guitar. Part of why many of the users of these cabs are so vocal is that we are SOLD on the design after having used traditional cabs for decades…not due to any brand reverence, etc.[/FONT]

 

[JTE]

Seventeen pages of chat, and still no user review?

It just showed up on Avatar's site on December 4, so it's been advertised for only just over a week.

John

 

[KJung]

[FONT=&quot]Let’s be honest…in the past year or so, if someone asks for cab advice and someone suggests a 2 or 3 way cab solution, there’s been a knee jerk reaction from many of the traditional 4x10, 2x10, 2x12 etc. cab owners, and it usually ends in the sci-tech-spec v. feels-good-use-it argument. People who use “traditional” cabinets seem to think that we’re speaking different languages or have different goals, which really we don’t. Maybe the fact that Avatar can present this cab for the 400 dollar price point will encourage some of the people who have acted like fEarful/Barefaced/A-K have a snoot factor will realize that it’s just a damn good way to voice a bass guitar. Part of why many of the users of these cabs are so vocal is that we are SOLD on the design after having used traditional cabs for decades…not due to any brand reverence, etc.[/FONT]

Again, I guess I was just in a lot earlier than most on this basic concept, since this is nothing particularly new to me (again, there have been cabs with mid drivers out there for over 20 years, easily available to the bassist... EA, Acme, LDS, Accugroove... for many, many, many years), and again, gigged one three way cab or another for many years.

There is no 'snoot' factor at all that I can see, however, again these cabs have their own feel, tone and performance that will appeal to some and not others, and most who have found 'their sound' with a cab or head or whatever of any design will, well, like it pretty much

I agree with you.... great cab design, and IMO the next step forward in a mid driver loaded cab. Listen to that clip I posted up... it sounds beautiful to me! Again, not my personal thing, but I sure do appreciate it, just like a good 212 or 410 or anything else. VERY nice stuff and it is cool that Avatar has added this design to their line to give players another nice choice!

Edit: And remember, I do gig a Thunderchild regularly!

 

[ishouldbeking]

this thread is fascinating to me, as both a player and as someone trying to glean some semblance of understanding of the mechanics at play. i'd still like to try a good 3 way cab some day, haven't had the chance yet though.

its interesting when you compare the bass and guitar worlds regarding these types of threads... when you look at a thread about cabs/amps/tone etc on here, you end up with very real-world explanations from those with engineering experience, telling you how and why things do what they do. in the guitar world, its all so mystical... visiting sites like thegearpage and a few others, there's a lot that most players seemingly don't want explained. just a very different approach.

on the flipside of that coin, most of the experienced session dudes in LA (i can only speak to the ones that I know, though) don't really stress over the minutiae the way folks do on here. i mean, one friend with more heavy-duty credits than I could ever imagine (both as a player and producer), he just schleps around a beat up 410HLF when he's not using backline. not saying he's right to make that choice, but it is interesting.

 

[KJung]

not saying he's right to make that choice, but it is interesting.

My guess is, for his tone goals, he probably has made the right choice (or he'd probably be using something else), and my guess is, he sounds great out in the room

 

[Chef]

nothing at all wrong with that, if it's meeting his tone goals, and satisfying those who hire him.

 

[Ol'Bass'ead]

And then again, he may not be aware of the advantages or sound of a 3-way (properly executed, of course). There's also the possibility that he deals with producers that believe the 4X10 is the epitome of proper bass playing-so you do your best to look the part to get the gigs.......

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

Yes, some bass players stick with their old bass gear like wives. And then there are those who don't......

 

[lbwdog]

Yes, some bass players stick with their old bass gear like wives. And then there are those who don't......

Sometimes it feels like I've gone through more wives than bass gear!!

 

[Chef]

Guilty.

I have a great dog though.

.....wives. And then there are those who don't......

 

[Tasteebass]

To be fair, this was only just released, right?

How about a roll call for who's got one on order? I really would if it was lighter...just a little too bulky and heavy for subway/bus/cab NYC use, unfortunately.

Recently ordered. Head's in the shop for now though. I'll definitely post feedback when the rig's set up.

 

[mikeddd]

KJung: Would you please post the link to the clip you recorded? I can't find it. Thanks.
Mike

 

[mikeddd]

Oh...it's the LDS cab. I have seen that video (many times, just like all your vids...I love'em!). I misunderstood; I thought you actually had the Avatar cab and posted a vid review. Thank you for reposting the link, though.