Band running their own sound tips?

[oldcatfish]

I just joined a cover band doing 3 sets at a local sports bar. The band just purchased a PA (JBL tops and subs, X18Air, DBX Drive Rack) and everyone is running directly into the PA, electronic drums, guitarist with an amp emulator, bass (me) running on a sansamp and one vocal.

I'm the new guy so I don't get much say but we are playing our first show in this configuration with no sound guy.

Now I'm sure this can be done but it just seems like we would benefit from getting a good shootout of our new system with a sound guy before we go gig.

Any tips for some good basic EQ settings for instruments or overall to help us sound better?

I'm no expert, but definitely recommend keeping things simple. And I do have experience running sound.
Here are a couple of tips:
1) As others have said, get it the best you can and have someone use a wireless, or at least have a friend you trust out front to give you an idea if anything is too loud. Then leave it unless you get feedback or something else that requires immediate attention.
2) It is CRITCAL that your drummer only uses a single patch (or slight variations on that one), and your guitar player only uses ONE amp simulation setting. He/she can add effects to color the amp simulation sound, but really needs to do it sparingly. If they don't do that--there is NO WAY that you will be able get a good FOH sound. There will be too many variables for something not to go wrong.
3) Use a hpf (if you have one) on bass and keyboards. That will also prevent a lot of problems.

 

[SoCal80s]

...He uses the driverack and an RTA mic to reduce feedback and "tune the room" as he calls it.

I've done sound engineering a few times but not regularly. I have a decent idea what I'm doing so I'll probably take a bigger role in the setup and soundcheck but honestly I'd rather just hire a sound guy.

My experience with feedback "killers" is that they make you sound terrible by notching out too many frequencies. It is much better to learn how to ring out your monitors and PA manually. Also, to "tune the room" I also think it is better to play some canned music similar to what you play and tune your mains by using EQ/adjusting volume knobs on the powered speakers to make that sound good in the room.

We would all love to just hire a sound guy, but most of us are not getting paid much to begin with, and having to split it with a sound guy is a no-go. Better learn to do it yourself.

And one more thought, unless you're playing in a dedicated concert hall, the room you play probably has lousy acoustics and your bandmates need to be ok with the PA not sounding "perfect" or you'll drive yourselves nuts.

 

[lbbc]

We run our own sound from stage. The guitarist has a volume pedal for leads, our vocalist and me (bassist) are wireless and check the mix prior to and during our show. It's always worked out fine. We've been doing this for 5 years without a problem.

 

[D.A.R.K.]

The problem with this, is all venues are different and drums are loud. If you are playing in a smaller venue... drummers are mostly uncontrollable. There are some drummers out there that have dynamics, but for the most part, they are like guitarist and like to be loud. So acoustically, not even mic'd up, the drums could be louder than vocals. And also, the toms are heavy in mid presence which will compete with vocals.

You are still going to need to find out how those mics react to the room you are in, those frequencies that are going to be issues will be the same regardless of drummy volume, you are still going to have to get proper gain staging and get the vocals loud enough to start. It's far easier to do that before getting the other folks on deck. People want to hear the vocals over everything else, in these scenarios it takes pa priority IME.

 

[kittywithabanjo]

I run sound from the stage as well as do it for others when I am playing I really do prefer there is a guy on the faders/tablet it does make a difference for sure, lots of great advice here, making sure everyone keeps their levels consistent and everyone is using good mic technique is a huge help, agree with trying to practice a few times with a new set up, it could be very frustrating trying to go into a gig with a new digital system if you dont know all the kinks, I also really like that everyone can sign in through an app and adjust their own monitors, as long as they are only doing slight tweaks this is a great way to go. I am doing sound for a group the next 3 nights where I just need to manage the front end pretty much everyone who has a monitor has the app and controls it themselves once I set the basic levels.

Also since I have done sound for these guys a number of times in the same room all I really need to do is be sure I am getting a good input level, at this point I dont really need a sound check (although it is nice), I just pull up the scene and I am good to go.

 

[funkytoe]

How "new" is this equipment? Have you had an opportunity to rehearse with it for a while? If so, most of the fundamentals should already be in place (basic levels/hpf/channels per instrument/etc.). Try to do at least one rehearsal at near gig volume with the P.A. set up in the same configuration you intend to use on the gig. That will help identify sources of feedback and bleed. Then, just follow the instructions above. No one tweaks their amp or preamp inputs during the gig. All adjustments to be made at the board only. If you have a few friends with good "ears" ask them to come to the gig and provide feedback to you about the mix during the first set. Then "set it and forget it" for sets two and three.

 

[fhm555]

I just joined a cover band doing 3 sets at a local sports bar. The band just purchased a PA (JBL tops and subs, X18Air, DBX Drive Rack) and everyone is running directly into the PA, electronic drums, guitarist with an amp emulator, bass (me) running on a sansamp and one vocal.

I'm the new guy so I don't get much say but we are playing our first show in this configuration with no sound guy.

Now I'm sure this can be done but it just seems like we would benefit from getting a good shootout of our new system with a sound guy before we go gig.

Any tips for some good basic EQ settings for instruments or overall to help us sound better?

IME, when it's a small place keep the PA simple. I've done a lot electric sets in tiny bars with a six channel powered mixer and and a couple of three way cabinets on stands. All that goes through it are vocals, acoustic instruments and/or mics for those instruments. If your drummer doesn't have any rods it would help if they got some. They can still hit it's just not as loud. I use a single 12 and a head. I've also got a little sixty watt cube that kills at small room volume, it just can't be pushed hard or it craps out. The guitar players use all manner of guitars but they always bring a Deluxe Reverb amp.

 

[Rib 13]

any tips for some good basic EQ settings for instruments or overall to help us sound better?

Start EQing flat and go from there......remember, EQ is just volume for individual frequencies so it's better to raise an instrument's overall volume and subtract db from frequencies than to boost them. There's exceptions to this but its a good rule of thumb....Also, keep in mind that 125hz and (especially) 250hz are problem low-end frequencies in almost any room and folks will blame bass and kick when its actually a conglomeration of everything, including mics and mic stand vibration

 

[walterw]

if someone in the band is going to go into the audience and set levels, it should not be the guitarist. It probably shouldn't be you. Whoever sets levels is likely to put too much of themselves in the mix, and if you have to choose one person to do that, it should be the vocalist - vocals that are a bit too prominent in the mix are more acceptable to an audience than an instrument that is a bit too prominent.

nah, it should totally be the bass player!

drummers can't hear anything back behind the kit while guitar players and singers only care about themselves

a good bass player is listening to the whole band anyway, they're ideally suited to tweak out front mixes.

(kidding a little, and you're right about the one with fader control tending to put themselves too loud in the mix if they're not careful. i did years of mixing from stage as both a guitar player and a bass player, but now the bands i play in have soundguys. it's so nice these days to just put my IEMs in and be a musician )

 

[walterw]

I have taken up the duties of running sound in my band too. I bought a digital mixer (presonus 16.4.2)...

...My biggest PITA is the in-ears and monitor mixes. Like electracoyote said above, I get stink-eyes and interruptions from band members because they want something up or down. At the last gig, our singer was using his new in-ear system and kept saying between each song..."I cant hear myself in my ears". I had him all the way up on the board. Finally i said, "do you have a gain or volume on your receiver pack? Because your all the way up". He goes..."oh, wait. Ok, there we go". Oy. And, then while i was trying to dial some things in between songs, the drummer, head down, starts the next song.

dude, you're missing the best thing about digital mixers; set up a cheap wi-fi router and the rest of the band can use their phones to adjust their own damn monitors!

especially with in-ears, you get to not worry about that stuff at all.

 

[john_g]

dude, you're missing the best thing about digital mixers; set up a cheap wi-fi router and the rest of the band can use their phones to adjust their own damn monitors!

especially with in-ears, you get to not worry about that stuff at all.

Oh, I know! But, the guitarists are not especially savvy with that stuff and I would end up having to troubleshoot that as well. It IS going to happen though. Like I said, we only have a few gigs on this board so we are still in the "getting the basic setup" phase, and between running the sound, i play bass, keyboards (with hands and feet...ala Geddy) and sing backup. So i have alot going on and didnt want to add another layer of technology yet, but you are 100% right!

 

[Astronaut]

Lot of good vibes here but some funny stuff too.
All in all My two cents are ;
If your not getting some one to balance levels FoH, just don’t do it while the gig is running. Make the most of your sound check and leave it where it is. I can’t conceive a show where one of the members leaves the stage in the middle of a song grabs a tablet makes some adjustments and goes back on stage. It’s maybe ok with top 40s cover bands but never in my band.

Someone said raise the high pass filter to 38/42hz for the guitar; I would try way much higher, easily 250hz unless your doing a no bass 2 eight stringed guitar djent project.
I would High pass almost everything leaving perhaps the bass and kick

Also there are no straight up frequencies to cut to control room acoustics.
It’s true that rooms tend to excite by sympathetic resonance on the lower end of the spectrum, because of the paralel nature of most room walls. As it’s true that some PA tend to exacerbate on the higher frequencies. For both you need to sweep the spectrum.

Don’t tell your drummer to use rods. Unless he or she tells you to use a felt pick on your U-bass. Just ask him to play lower and to listen to the rest of the band. That last one goes to the guitarists too, as well to the singer, keyboard, sax, hurdygurdy, etc.. and bass player too.

 

[CBBass123]

You are still going to need to find out how those mics react to the room you are in, those frequencies that are going to be issues will be the same regardless of drummy volume, you are still going to have to get proper gain staging and get the vocals loud enough to start. It's far easier to do that before getting the other folks on deck. People want to hear the vocals over everything else, in these scenarios it takes pa priority IME.

I do vocals last because you are going to EQ vocals to cut through many instruments, sometimes a huge 8+ instrument band. It's alot easier to cut vocals through vs EQ'ing every other instrument to the vocal. Drums normally have their own tuning therefore i do them first, always. I EQ them so that they dont compete with other frequency ranges. Then i EQ the bass guitar to drums. Once they sound good together, i usually get guitar in the mixes. Then keys, and so on. Then once the band sounds good with no vocals, as to if their were primarily an instrumental band....i then introduce vocals and have them slightly over the top. You don't want vocal too loud as to drown out the band. Otherwise... what's the point of the band.

But everyone has their own strategies. I run sound from small shows to huge shows... 3 to 4 times a week. It's fun.

 

[ROGI]

The problem with this, is all venues are different and drums are loud. If you are playing in a smaller venue... drummers are mostly uncontrollable. There are some drummers out there that have dynamics, but for the most part, they are like guitarist and like to be loud. So acoustically, not even mic'd up, the drums could be louder than vocals. And also, the toms are heavy in mid presence which will compete with vocals.

EQ: other tips
Bass guitar. Too boomy? Try a higher low cut/hpf. Maybe 38 - 42hz. The trick is to not boost the bass. Use an EQ shelving where the bass is different than the bass drum. Bass drum boosted in 60hz, cut bass guitar at 60hz but emphasize bass at 80hz and above. Bass is better heard at mids anyways.

Oh and don't Pan. There's really no need for panning unless its really needed. I run mostly mono for all bands unless its a huge show and even at then, i seldom pan. Depending on the situation, there could be a good amount of people just chillin on the left side of stage that panning wouldn't help. Or opposite. I like bands at mono. I've done countless shows fully mono. Only time i find it useful is when a guitarist shows up to a small gig with a half stack and you are like seriously bro?? So hes gonna be loud already on one side of the stage. But normally, the sound guy has the power to go and tell that guy to turn down and give him guitar in the monitor.

Good points about panning, i'm just into different setup. We run EVERYTHING trough laptop, guitar, vocals, bass, drums are midi track on laptop ; so guitars get amped trough amp sims, bass is just compressor+saturator and a tad of eq, so it's really easy in my case to jus pan stuff a bit here and there, since there is no sound (except vocals and string buzz) comming from the stage. Had a good read going trough your posts, reminded me of how sound is set with band that uses amps and drums.

 

[D.A.R.K.]

I do vocals last because you are going to EQ vocals to cut through many instruments, sometimes a huge 8+ instrument band. It's alot easier to cut vocals through vs EQ'ing every other instrument to the vocal. Drums normally have their own tuning therefore i do them first, always. I EQ them so that they dont compete with other frequency ranges. Then i EQ the bass guitar to drums. Once they sound good together, i usually get guitar in the mixes. Then keys, and so on. Then once the band sounds good with no vocals, as to if their were primarily an instrumental band....i then introduce vocals and have them slightly over the top. You don't want vocal too loud as to drown out the band. Otherwise... what's the point of the band.

But everyone has their own strategies. I run sound from small shows to huge shows... 3 to 4 times a week. It's fun.

I only eq to cut problem frequencies with vocal microphones, never boost- that's in the tuning of the system itself. And try to do as little eq as possible on instrumentation, although I always incorporate high pass on every channel if it's a digital desk, even if it's 30hz (kick drum). if an amp/ instrument doesn't sound right, I'll ask the player to adjust the source. Going nuts on trying to fix bad source never really fixes the problem. Mixing everything at unity, the band should control itself. Vocals on top a couple db, yes instruments are just as important but if someone steps unto a vocal it needs to be heard. I also run small to stadium size shows, festivals etc. rock to orchestras. It's a living, and can indeed be quite fun sometimes.

 

[Medford Bassman]

Rule #1:

Make it clear to everyone in the band, especially your fussier band mates, that "set it and forget it" means "forget it" even when the mix isn't "perfect." I can not stand band members giving me all kinds of stupid faces, smoke signals, and flagging me down mid-performance because they wish something was louder or quieter in their monitors, or someone walked out front and wishes the cowbell was a smidge louder. Just...don't. I have an instrument to play and singing to do, please just let the show go on without numerous minor complaints and interruptions in the momentum, which the audience is very sensitive to and puts a real stink on the band. Get it as close as you can during a thorough soundcheck and then deal with and ignore any small imperfections that arise. Sheesh, I have to suck it up with a bad mix half of the time even when we have a dedicated sound tech, so we can surely gut it out until the end of the set to tweak things.

One big favor you can all do in that regard is control your stage volume and don't ramp it up into a volume war. People will lose their monitor mixes, your FOH will be shot to hell, and chaos results. Running everything with V-amps through the board should cure most of that, at least until someone figures out the workaround and starts to ramp it up during the performance. "Set it and forget it" applies to stage volume as well.

If this is new to you and the band, definitely plan a dress rehearsal with your system to form a game plan and get a good grip on it before you arrive at the venue. Take lots of notes about procedures and settings. Give yourselves plenty of time for set up and sound check as every environment has the potential to introduce some unpleasant mixing challenges.

It can be done if you all apply common sense and discipline. I ran one of the more popular dance/party cover bands in town for about four years often running sound from stage in public venues and always at private events. And we had a V-Drum player, and let me tell you what a godsend that is, especially if you can get him to tweak his kit in a pre-mix and just send you a stereo L-R output. Make sure everyone on stage can hear drums well in monitors, sometimes e-drums get lost on stage.

Unless you want to squander countless hours chasing perfection, encourage everyone to get their sound right at the source, their instrument and signal path. Singers need to know how to work a microphone and guitar/keys players need to control their own volume with appropriate clean/distorted/solo settings. Combine that with flat EQ settings at the board as much as possible - it's amazing how often that does the trick. With time you will learn what truly requires subtractive/additive EQ for each channel and the room, but that can be like chasing your tail and a huge time suck if you get too wrapped up in it. Remember: You also have a show to perform, so don't waste time and energy and risk frustration right before downbeat. KISS.

Follow the above advice. I run around for my band from the stage. This is spot on.

 

[micguy]

You have a xr18 right? Use your PC and Learn to do virtual sound-checks.

Virtual Sound checks allow you to hear what’s coming through the PA. Unfortunately, that technique ignores what’s coming off the stage. The difference can be significant - drums and anyone with an amp on stage will be underrepresented in a virtual sound check.

 

[Wasnex]

Virtual Sound checks allow you to hear what’s coming through the PA. Unfortunately, that technique ignores what’s coming off the stage. The difference can be significant - drums and anyone with an amp on stage will be underrepresented in a virtual sound check.

Yep, works well if the band is in IEMs and there are no amps or acoustic drums.

 

[Wasnex]

Good points about panning, i'm just into different setup. We run EVERYTHING trough laptop, guitar, vocals, bass, drums are midi track on laptop ; so guitars get amped trough amp sims, bass is just compressor+saturator and a tad of eq, so it's really easy in my case to jus pan stuff a bit here and there, since there is no sound (except vocals and string buzz) comming from the stage. Had a good read going trough your posts, reminded me of how sound is set with band that uses amps and drums.

I actually almost always use a bit of light panning. The idea is not to create a stereo image, it's to open space in the mix. Stereo effects like reverb are panned fairly hard. I pan background vocals about 3dB. With guitar and keys I might cross fade so the PA covers the side opposite of the players rig. I may pan toms and drum over heads more than any other instrument.

The amount of panning varies on the size of the room, layout of the audience, and the balance between the house mix and the stage wash. Obviously if the audience is really wide the panning is less and if the audience is more centered between the speakers the panning can be more. Low frequencies go in center IMHO.

IMHO panning to open up the mix becomes more important if you are dealing with a large ensemble like a big band. 18 instruments in mono get's cluttered very quickly.

For context, I usually run LCR systems. Typically I have front fills on the lip of the stage or flown center fills. I usually run these mono off an aux or matrix. If I am mixing a big band, I might just put vocals in the center fills since the acoustic energy from the ensemble will typically take care of the front rows.

 

[kittywithabanjo]

I use panning alot with two guitars etc...find it helps with some separation etc.