Barefaced 610 hype/svt killer etc. etc.

[JimmyM]

Makes me wonder. I am always torn between studio and live gig environment. I have yet to see a high class studio monitor aiming to get lighter in weight in order to sound better. If anything, it's quite the opposite. My Neumann KH310 weigh 13kg (28,6 lbs) per unit and it really is among the lightest units in that price range.

Can you please elaborate on this a bit? Not trying to provoke or anything, just a fair question out of curiosity.

Once a studio monitor is put in place, it generally stays there. You're not schlepping it from gig to gig. I think it's way more important for PA companies to use lighter speakers more efficiently than it is us, but even I, a diehard SVT 810 fan since 1978, have to use lighter stuff on a day to day basis. I do see a fair amount of neo cabs being used in Bass World, but I opted for smaller cabs with ceramic magnets because I'm not quite as happy with the neo cabs I've played thru as I am the ceramics.

 

[Sparkl]

Once a studio monitor is put in place, it generally stays there. You're not schlepping it from gig to gig. I think it's way more important for PA companies to use lighter speakers more efficiently than it is us, but even I, a diehard SVT 810 fan since 1978, have to use lighter stuff on a day to day basis. I do see a fair amount of neo cabs being used in Bass World, but I opted for smaller cabs with ceramic magnets because I'm not quite as happy with the neo cabs I've played thru as I am the ceramics.

Yes, that is completely understandable. Not denying the practicality of lightweight equipment.

But this is not what Alex is saying. He claims that using lighter materials makes the cab sound better.

 

[Low Class]

At any rate, the reason you've existed as Barefaced for over 10 years now is that you make a quality product that is different from other stuff, and bassists do like it. But when you use terms like "fridge killer" or "Ampeg killer," that puts expectations in people's minds that it's going to sound like a better Ampeg 810. And it very well might be to some people. But I've never seen it be anything but the kiss of death for those using it, whether they call it an Ampeg killer or a Strat killer or whatever.

Just a little friendly advice from a pal.

Well if you read more than just the headlines this is how he describes his cab:

The Six10 - the all-new fridge killer!

• Inspired by the '69er but with a bigger sweeter tone and a lot more max output especially down low
• Based around our unique 10CR250 driver, a retro sounding high output ferrite 10" loudspeaker
• Using our innovative hybrid enclosure which sounds and feels like a sealed cab but can play loud and bring the thunder like a ported cab
• Built strong, light and stiff for maximum gigging ease and great tone

Why this rather than the celebrated '69er?
The Retro Six10 is more sensitive (six bass drivers rather than five plus the boost from the hybrid resonator enclosure), has a smoother more flattering treble response, punchier fatter mids and a bigger weightier bottom.

Nowhere do I see the word "better", only accurately described as "inspired by" but different in several ways. The customer reviews indicate the cab he produces is very much like he advertises. The only "kiss of death" is for those that can't read past the headlines or past the badge "Ampeg"!

 

[JimmyM]

Yes, that is completely understandable. Not denying the practicality of lightweight equipment.

But this is not what Alex is saying. He claims that using lighter materials makes the cab sound better.

To Alex and most of his clientele, I'm sure they do. Alex has forgotten more about how audio works from a physics level than I'll ever know, and he keeps up with advances in cab tech way more than I do. Plus, he's big enough now to where he can order customized speakers. But that doesn't mean it's going to please everyone. What it means is Alex believes in his products enough to invest good money into developing what he feels are state of the art cabs. He's still selling them so he's doing something right.

 

[Sparkl]

To Alex and most of his clientele, I'm sure they do. Alex has forgotten more about how audio works from a physics level than I'll ever know, and he keeps up with advances in cab tech way more than I do. Plus, he's big enough now to where he can order customized speakers. But that doesn't mean it's going to please everyone. What it means is Alex believes in his products enough to invest good money into developing what he feels are state of the art cabs. He's still selling them so he's doing something right.

Surely so. But believing =/= facts. There are simply too many factors that can affect the sound and its quality and weight is probably somewhere in the mix but I would say that there are certain parameters to be implemented in the design of a cabinet in order for it to produce what you want it to.

And we're not talking only about frequency response and dispersion - there's a crapload of other things to take into consideration as well, such as time domain, impulse response, harmonic distortion, early reflections, room response estimates, speaker sensitivity, etc. etc.

In any case, there is a certain trade-off to be made. You cannot say that one way is the definite way, not in acoustics. It's always a trade-off.

 

[JimmyM]

Well if you read more than just the headlines this is how he describes his cab:

The Six10 - the all-new fridge killer!

• Inspired by the '69er but with a bigger sweeter tone and a lot more max output especially down low
• Based around our unique 10CR250 driver, a retro sounding high output ferrite 10" loudspeaker
• Using our innovative hybrid enclosure which sounds and feels like a sealed cab but can play loud and bring the thunder like a ported cab
• Built strong, light and stiff for maximum gigging ease and great tone

Why this rather than the celebrated '69er?
The Retro Six10 is more sensitive (six bass drivers rather than five plus the boost from the hybrid resonator enclosure), has a smoother more flattering treble response, punchier fatter mids and a bigger weightier bottom.

Nowhere do I see the word "better", only accurately described as "inspired by" but different in several ways. The customer reviews indicate the cab he produces is very much like he advertises. The only "kiss of death" is for those that can't read past the headlines or past the badge "Ampeg"!

The bolded parts are what people remember. Well hey, Alex has a thriving business and who am I to tell him how to market his stuff? But that cab sounds like less of a fridge killer and more like a 410hlf killer

 

[alexclaber]

He claims that using lighter materials makes the cab sound better.

No, I'm saying that the simpler construction allowed by using heavier (thicker and thus stiffer) materials makes them sound worse. We have to crossbrace the cabs to make them stiff enough and that improves their internal acoustics.

If you want to hear this in practice, compare the acoustics of a totally empty room, an empty room with carpet and curtains, a room with shelves and pictures and dining table and chairs, and a room like the prior one but with the carpet and curtains and soft furnishings too. It's amazing how much difference the hard furnishings make - people all too often think it's just about the soft stuff.

 

[JimmyM]

Surely so. But believing =/= facts. There are simply too many factors that can affect the sound and its quality and weight is probably somewhere in the mix but I would say that there are certain parameters to be implemented in the design of a cabinet in order for it to produce what you want it to.

And we're not talking only about frequency response and dispersion - there's a crapload of other things to take into consideration as well, such as time domain, impulse response, harmonic distortion, early reflections, room response estimates, speaker sensitivity, etc. etc.

In any case, there is a certain trade-off to be made. You cannot say that one way is the definite way, not in acoustics. It's always a trade-off.

And that is exactly why you can still get plenty of heavier cabs with ceramic speakers.

 

[nutdog]

My 112 wants to kill a fridge but the only time it got close I wouldn’t bring it in. I prevented that crime, but the house sound guy asked me to keep the amp volume to a minimum. The PA was obnoxiously loud so, despite my peacemaking efforts, fridgicide still occurred.

The bass player in the band before us used his tiny rumble combo. The fridge never really tried to defend itself.

 

[Low Class]

OP states "first show" with this "loud hardcore band, "It was a solid sounding cab though. I probably would have done some tweeter adjusting if there was one and I have a moment or two during soundcheck.", doesn't say what head he was using or even if it was his own head, doesn't even say anything about the stage or even if he's ever played this room before. Not even close to enough info or experience with the cab to give a real opinion.

 

[deff]

OP states "first show" with this "loud hardcore band, "It was a solid sounding cab though. I probably would have done some tweeter adjusting if there was one and I have a moment or two during soundcheck.", doesn't say what head he was using or even if it was his own head, doesn't even say anything about the stage or even if he's ever played this room before. Not even close to enough info or experience with the cab to give a real opinion.

As I stated I didn't have enough time to determine if there was a tweeter. I was using my head. If you casting aspersions because I play for a loud hardcore band, then I give up and have no response to that slight. The stage was the Middle East in Cambridge. I have played there more than a few times, and as we were the first band to play I did have time to at least monkey around enough. So you know where your comment about "my real opinion" can go. You may dispute my opinion, but just because I qualified that I hadn't had time to sit for an hour with the cab, doesn't make it any less valid.
Like I stated. I thought it was a good cab. Certainly a lot better than a number of cabs I've used on backline. Good has nothing to do with this. I just think the two cabs sound nothing alike at all. I think even Alex has stated that he would not expect them to. He designed the cab to be something different. 100% cool with that in my book. I just find it frustrating that people make comparisons, when there really isn't one to be made here. My friend who owns the cab loves it. I bet if I had more time with it, I'd feel the same. It did sound great on the recording.

 

[JimmyM]

As I stated I didn't have enough time to determine if there was a tweeter. I was using my head. If you casting aspersions because I play for a loud hardcore band, then I give up and have no response to that slight. The stage was the Middle East in Cambridge. I have played there more than a few times, and as we were the first band to play I did have time to at least monkey around enough. So you know where your comment about "my real opinion" can go. You may dispute my opinion, but just because I qualified that I hadn't had time to sit for an hour with the cab, doesn't make it any less valid.

Agreed. You sat with it for a little bit, did a gig with it, decided it wasn't what you're looking for, and that's it. Doing a gig with it is plenty enough experimentation on its own, IMHO. You shouldn't need to dig around a cab longer than a gig to determine if it's got a good sound that works for your needs. If I have to dig for a sound out of a cab that I love, I've got the wrong cab for me, end of story.

Like I stated. I thought it was a good cab. Certainly a lot better than a number of cabs I've used on backline. Good has nothing to do with this. I just think the two cabs sound nothing alike at all. I think even Alex has stated that he would not expect them to. He designed the cab to be something different. 100% cool with that in my book. I just find it frustrating that people make comparisons, when there really isn't one to be made here. My friend who owns the cab loves it. I bet if I had more time with it, I'd feel the same. It did sound great on the recording.

A fairer comparison would be the 410hlf. But even still, 6k is a lot of high end for those who like tweeterless cabs.

 

[jnewmark]

As I stated I didn't have enough time to determine if there was a tweeter. I was using my head. If you casting aspersions because I play for a loud hardcore band, then I give up and have no response to that slight. The stage was the Middle East in Cambridge. I have played there more than a few times, and as we were the first band to play I did have time to at least monkey around enough. So you know where your comment about "my real opinion" can go. You may dispute my opinion, but just because I qualified that I hadn't had time to sit for an hour with the cab, doesn't make it any less valid.
Like I stated. I thought it was a good cab. Certainly a lot better than a number of cabs I've used on backline. Good has nothing to do with this. I just think the two cabs sound nothing alike at all. I think even Alex has stated that he would not expect them to. He designed the cab to be something different. 100% cool with that in my book. I just find it frustrating that people make comparisons, when there really isn't one to be made here. My friend who owns the cab loves it. I bet if I had more time with it, I'd feel the same. It did sound great on the recording.

" I just find it frustrating that people make comparisons, when there really isn't one to be made here." With all due respect, it seems you are the one who made the comparison with the Barefaced and the Fridge, because it was advertised as a " SVT Killer ", therefore they were supposed to sound alike. You even state that Alex would not expect them to sound alike, and I can find no statement from BF saying they do. Anyway, no dog in this fight, although I find it odd that Alex would say heavier, thicker construction " makes them sound worse ". Obviously, the " heavier, thicker " Fridge sounds glorious and is an industry standard for tone.

 

[alexclaber]

A fairer comparison would be the 410hlf.

The Six10 really doesn't sound like or perform like a 410HLF.

I didn't design it to be an Ampeg 810 clone tonally but I did design it to be a very high efficiency cab that gets the most out of tube amps (whilst also performing very well with solidstate amps of all power levels) with excellent midrange punch and enough treble clarity. In that sense it's far more like an Ampeg 810 although most would say the Six10 has more extension in the highs and lows.

I don't think I've ever called it an SVT killer because an SVT is a head - but it's very happy having an SVT on top of it.

...I find it odd that Alex would say heavier, thicker construction " makes them sound worse ".

See my earlier post about how cuboids sound worse than more complex shapes.

 

[JimmyM]

" I just find it frustrating that people make comparisons, when there really isn't one to be made here." With all due respect, it seems you are the one who made the comparison with the Barefaced and the Fridge, because it was advertised as a " SVT Killer ", therefore they were supposed to sound alike. You even state that Alex would not expect them to sound alike, and I can find no statement from BF saying they do. Anyway, no dog in this fight, although I find it odd that Alex would say heavier, thicker construction " makes them sound worse ". Obviously, the " heavier, thicker " Fridge sounds glorious and is an industry standard for tone.

Even though Alex clarifies it in the description, to me it suggests that if I love the SVT 810, I'll love the BF cab, too. Could very well happen, but not without an HPF on it But hey, I'm no stranger to good marketing, and I'll always tell folks considering a purchase that major to really do your research. And that goes for people considering buying a fridge for the first time, too.

The Six10 really doesn't sound like or perform like a 410HLF.

I didn't design it to be an Ampeg 810 clone tonally but I did design it to be a very high efficiency cab that gets the most out of tube amps (whilst also performing very well with solidstate amps of all power levels) with excellent midrange punch and enough treble clarity. In that sense it's far more like an Ampeg 810 although most would say the Six10 has more extension in the highs and lows.

I don't think I've ever called it an SVT killer because an SVT is a head - but it's very happy having an SVT on top of it.

The cabs are called SVT, too, even though I've looked and there's nary a tube in any of them

 

[jnewmark]

Even though Alex clarifies it in the description, to me it suggests that if I love the SVT 810, I'll love the BF cab, too. Could very well happen, but not without an HPF on it But hey, I'm no stranger to good marketing, and I'll always tell folks considering a purchase that major to really do your research. And that goes for people considering buying a fridge for the first time, too.


The cabs are called SVT, too, even though I've looked and there's nary a tube in any of them

Yeah, I get it now, but the original post was basically saying, " this cab does not sound like a fridge". I don't think it was ever implied by anyone, even Alex, that it did. The OP was making the comparison, even though he states he gets frustrated when people make comparisons when there isn't one to be made. Confusing, but, hey, I'm 73; confusion is a daily thing.

 

[alexclaber]

Even though Alex clarifies it in the description, to me it suggests that if I love the SVT 810, I'll love the BF cab, too. Could very well happen, but not without an HPF on it

The thing is, no-one buys a Barefaced cab on a whim, and most email for advice, and I've learnt that the best approach is to be as precise and honest as possible with my analysis of what's needed, that way people get the cab they really want, and continue to spread good words about us.

Regarding high pass filters, you can use a separate one if you like but I can't see why anyone would need to use one with a Six10 and it's not something I hear from customers (and one of the big upsides of selling direct is we also get very direct feedback). Are you assuming that the Six10 has tons more low-end than an Ampeg 810 or have you heard one?

 

[Dave W]

I'll stick up for the OP. I've always read the ad copy for the 10" cabs that they are supposed to sound like an Ampeg. Whether it directly says that or not is a different story.

Just some backstory on why I'm discussing:
I've been playing Barefaced cabs for a long time now. The Big Baby II's that I own have filled every venue I've played with amazing, deep, clear, articulate bass. Other than not loving how the horn sounds with distortion, I have zero qualms with them and never wanted a different cab. I had three of them and sold two, so now I'm down to one. I just didn't need them sitting around while we weren't gigging over the past year and a half.

Since gigs have picked up again, I've been using my NV610 as my "big" set up because I usually needed two BB2's to cover that role. The NV610 flat out rocks, but it's not the easiest cab to move around. I've been looking for a lighter alternative that still captures the general Ampeg vibe (The NV610 does IMO, although still different in it's own right) and of course want to use Barefaced to get me there.

However, reading this thread makes me question whether or not the 10" cabs will get me what I'm looking for. I'm still on the fence in deciding, although I think I'll give them a shot because they've been so awesome for me in the past. Now I just need to decide the form factor, using with an SVT or V4B...
Three Two10's?
Two Two10's?
Two Four10's?
One Two10 and one Four10?
One Six10?

 

[bobomatic]

Now I just need to decide the form factor, using with an SVT or V4B...
Three Two10's?
Two Two10's?
Two Four10's?
One Two10 and one Four10?
One Six10?

Maybe this will help in terms of form factor….

 

[Dave W]

Maybe this will help in terms of form factor….View attachment 4399255

Cool, thanks!

I can deal with most form factors I think. The 610 might be a little big for some venues but still useable.
The Four10 only comes in 8 ohm so I can't really use that as a standalone cab with the SVT. I wish they made a switchable option or a 4 ohm, then it would be a no brainer.
Getting Three Two10s would work great, but I'd need two most of the time and it's an expensive option.

Sorry, I don't mean to hijack the thread...