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Bass through FOH subs only?
- Thread starter Subersibo
- Start date
I have seen this when there is a large loud bass rig in use at indoor venues. The reasoning used by the sound engineer is that bass in the mains would be "compete" with the bass rig and therefore it is taken out.
That was my first thought too. If the bass amp on stage is loud enough to fill the room, it'll only need a little help with the lower frequencies. If the OP is looking to ditch the amp and go DI, it would be worth experimenting again at a rehearsal.
OTOH, if all parties involved (band and sound engineer) truly are incompetent, then the OP needs to call a band meeting. It's not about you or your ego, but simply making the whole band sound as good as it can be. Too many less knowledgeable people think a sub is there to provide the 'bass'. It's not. IMO a sub works in tandem with the tops to provide a full range system. It's essentially there to add the low end frequncies the main speakers lose by putting them up on poles (look up boundary reinforcement).
FullumMusic
Commercial User
- Oct 13, 2022
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- Audio/Music software developer, contracted with a company you've heard of and deving my own stuff.
So much this.
Without getting into the whole history of loudspeakers and why subwoofers were invented, yeah, it's right there in the name: "SUB" woofer. They're only there to reproduce the sub frequencies. Any note you play on a musical instrument has a ton of harmonic information way up the frequency range.
And that's kinda the danger of people doing sound because they know what all the faders and knobs do on the mixer, but they don't really have an understanding of what's going on electrically/electronically/acoustically behind the scenes. I know it's fun to rag on sound engineers (and as a former sound engineer, yeah, there's a lot of bad ones out there.) But there's so much more to it than plugging things in and turning up the volume. hehehe.
And @Subersibo If you have a meeting to explain why sending the bass to the sub-only isn't a good idea, run this little experiment for them: Record a few bars of yourself playing in your DAW. Go up and down the neck a bit from Low E up to the G on the 12th fret of the G string. Then put a Low Pass Filter with the Cutoff Frequency at 80Hz on the channel. Then A/B your recording with and without the LPF. That's literally what they're doing when they run the bass through the sub-only.
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It can sound like your signal is only going through the subs, even if it's also properly routed to and balanced in the mains. You really can't judge what it sounds like out in the house from the stage.
Why? At the lowest frequencies, the sound is pretty much omnidirectional unless you have a fairly large sub array. Essentially the lows wrap around the subs and travel in all directions equally.
As the frequency goes higher, the wavelength gets shorter and shorter and the speaker begins to develop pattern control. By the time the frequency has risen into the mids, most of the sound will be shooting forward. So you won't hear the mids and highs coming from the PA unless they hit a reflective surface and bounce back to you.
It sounds like they have verbally confirmed that they are only sending your signal to the subs. Hopefully this will give you a vague approximation of the complex range of emotions this gives me:
IMHO the audio tech they asked to consult seems sort of like the blind leading the blind. My guess is he is the person who taught them wrong in the first place.
Wasnex is very right here.
Apart from that input, I want to add the following train of thought:
You don't usually set your mixer up in a way that allows you to route signals to specific speakers.
If you told me to set up my band's rig so the bass only comes through the subs, my only chance to do so would be to check the crossover frequency and then put a lowpass on my signal - because leaving the mixer is the band mix - out of two XLR cables that go either to the active subs (which power the mains) or to the poweramp rig with a frequency splitter - in both scenarios the signal going out is full range and the instance that decides what goes to the subs and what does not is outside the mixer.
There is no direct way to access 'just the subs' for one instrument. I know, different setups allow for different routings, but the majority of simple setups works that way.
Whenever I'm on stage soundchecking and only subs are working, the sound is pure mud, completely unusable even for an untrained ear.
That’s insanity. I’m usually more likely to forego subs entirely (upright bass)
With a system set up to run the subs from an aux (some times it's done that way) you could send an input just to the subs.
Normally the channel is brought up sending the input to the mains and then.......if needed the aux send for the sub is turned up to send the input into the subs.
The aux is set to be post fade so then the sub level tracks the channel fader.
I know it is against the rules to bash the Sound guy 
but, I have never EVER (classic Chris Jericho) heard of having the bass run through subs only as a solution when running Di to FOH. This advice is ludicrous to say the least, and IMO tainted.
but, I have never EVER (classic Chris Jericho) heard of having the bass run through subs only as a solution when running Di to FOH. This advice is ludicrous to say the least, and IMO tainted.
Placement of the subs is critical (hopefully not directly on the stage). Subs should also be run off aux sends for better control.
Bass should not be in the subs only---- much gets lost.
Show the sound guy pics of large line array systems with flying subs and ask him why some of them are backwards.
Bass should not be in the subs only---- much gets lost.
Show the sound guy pics of large line array systems with flying subs and ask him why some of them are backwards.
Either the sound guy is completely incompetent or your mains are terrible and he was trying to avoid them being overloaded.
This is typical poor behavior of an inexperienced sound guy that wants to “feel” the bass in the room.
They also have a tendency to have the kick drum too loud in the subs because they want to “feel” the kick in the room.
It turns into a gig that rumbles like a cannon.
The best sound guy I ever heard was at a Marcus Miller concert and he made the bass sound just like the record.
The majority of great sound engineers that I have met are musicians that have played in bands.
When I studied sound engineering it was a requirement to have band experience or else you had to learn an instrument and spend a semester playing in a band.
Good luck with your situation and I’m guessing it won’t improve until you get a different sound engineer with better ears and more experience.
They also have a tendency to have the kick drum too loud in the subs because they want to “feel” the kick in the room.
It turns into a gig that rumbles like a cannon.
The best sound guy I ever heard was at a Marcus Miller concert and he made the bass sound just like the record.
The majority of great sound engineers that I have met are musicians that have played in bands.
When I studied sound engineering it was a requirement to have band experience or else you had to learn an instrument and spend a semester playing in a band.
Good luck with your situation and I’m guessing it won’t improve until you get a different sound engineer with better ears and more experience.
I have to reconsider my original post where I said I would threaten to quit. I would tell the sound tech to put me in the mains, not ask, and if he argued even a little, I would pack up and leave. There would be no threat to quit.
Now I could be tempted by money, but I’m sure that gig wouldn’t pay anyway. Seriously, it’s possibly the dumbest idea I’ve seen on here in all my years on here, and I have seen some really dumb ideas.
Now I could be tempted by money, but I’m sure that gig wouldn’t pay anyway. Seriously, it’s possibly the dumbest idea I’ve seen on here in all my years on here, and I have seen some really dumb ideas.
JazznFunk
Supporting Member
In just the subs and not the mains? That's idiotic. This sounds like a product of the 'bass should be felt but not heard' phenomenon that has plagued live sound for decades now. I understand the need for subs to reproduce certain frequencies out front, but honestly they should be shelved and used sparingly. You should - if your rig is being overpowered and rendered unusable, or you're told to turn it down to a point where you can't hear it reasonably - at least be put in your monitor wedge so you can hear some detail directly, and you should insist on having the bass put in the mains as well for clarity/attack..... and probably fire the sound guy at the end of the gig.
The sound guy only came in to “help” during rehearsal so the band would get their in-ear systems working and fix a few sound issues as the guys were having trouble with the new mixer.
But when he checked the settings that’s the first thing he did (“the bass shouldn’t be coming out of the mains”, he said). Some of you pointed out that maybe he did that because it’s just there in support of my bass amp and that’s a good point.
I’ll just continue bringing my heavy amp and cab for this group.
But when he checked the settings that’s the first thing he did (“the bass shouldn’t be coming out of the mains”, he said). Some of you pointed out that maybe he did that because it’s just there in support of my bass amp and that’s a good point.
I’ll just continue bringing my heavy amp and cab for this group.
Jazzdogg
Less barking, more wagging!
I use Aux-fed subs, which enables me to determine, channel by channel, what is fed to the subs.
If you are so loud for the room that the tech thinks you should only be in the subs, then you shouldn’t be in the PA at all. Otherwise you should be in the entire PA.
Why? I have always wondered about this. Perhaps it is another approach to HPF everything except bass and kick?
I’m not sure how you could send a single FOH “only to the subs” in a normal house PA situation. If I’m not mistaken the crossover happens downstream of the instrument mix.
Maybe your dude is EQing your signal to attenuate all the signal above low bass. That’s a discussion you can have with the sound guy.
Edit: I saw above where someone has a way to send an instrument signal only to the subs. Then you’d be removing that instrument from all of the control the FOH mixer provides. No idea why anyone would ever do this.
Maybe your dude is EQing your signal to attenuate all the signal above low bass. That’s a discussion you can have with the sound guy.
Edit: I saw above where someone has a way to send an instrument signal only to the subs. Then you’d be removing that instrument from all of the control the FOH mixer provides. No idea why anyone would ever do this.
