Bass through FOH subs only?

[steve_rolfeca]

J...Happy to say someone got the hint and now I go through the full system. Funny thing is, they seem to think that it must be me that’s doing something different that the sound improved…..same bass, same pedal board.

Reminds me of the time FOH kept telling me I was too loud and too boomy. Every time the keys or I hit a low F, the note would take off.

I eventually muted my bass, and then it only took a moment to realize that the real problem was a feedback loop with the Kick mic.

Once I understood, all I had to do was watch for the sound guy to look over at me. As he started to repeat his hand signals for me to turn down, I lifted my bass toward him, making it sure he could see that I wasn't playing, and my strings were muted.

As his eyebrows started to go up, I just turned and pointed at the kick.

I got a fairly decent apology after the gig, and after that incident I got a lot less attitude when I asked for level or frequency adjustments.

 

[10xClean]

I feel your pain. I have a issue where 250hz is cut in the FOH eq. For some reason the new house engineer is under the impression "250 is the nasty, you don't want that there" Any attempt to convince him otherwise has failed. Been a house band playing this establishment for 20 years. Full in house PA, 5 different stages. I play a 6 string, I live for hifi and tone. No stage amp and my DI is a Avalon U5. I don't use IEM's because I prefer to hear the house. Thanks to this new guy my bass sounds now like a old P-bass with 10 YO nylons. My only remedy is to start using a stage amp and accent the 250hz range. In 45+ years of live performance I have never encountered this. Sorry to hear of your troubles Subersibo. I hope you find a solution.

 

[Mike Caldwell]

I feel your pain. I have a issue where 250hz is cut in the FOH eq. For some reason the new house engineer is under the impression "250 is the nasty, you don't want that there" Any attempt to convince him otherwise has failed. Been a house band playing this establishment for 20 years. Full in house PA, 5 different stages. I play a 6 string, I live for hifi and tone. No stage amp and my DI is a Avalon U5. I don't use IEM's because I prefer to hear the house. Thanks to this new guy my bass sounds now like a old P-bass with 10 YO nylons. My only remedy is to start using a stage amp and accent the 250hz range. In 45+ years of live performance I have never encountered this. Sorry to hear of your troubles Subersibo. I hope you find a solution.

In all fairness that 250hz area can cause a lot low mid build up.......in some rooms and systems. Maybe it needed some cut, maybe it was cut too much, maybe not needed, just saying.

 

[Windreaper]

I feel your pain. I have a issue where 250hz is cut in the FOH eq. For some reason the new house engineer is under the impression "250 is the nasty, you don't want that there" Any attempt to convince him otherwise has failed. Been a house band playing this establishment for 20 years. Full in house PA, 5 different stages. I play a 6 string, I live for hifi and tone. No stage amp and my DI is a Avalon U5. I don't use IEM's because I prefer to hear the house. Thanks to this new guy my bass sounds now like a old P-bass with 10 YO nylons. My only remedy is to start using a stage amp and accent the 250hz range. In 45+ years of live performance I have never encountered this. Sorry to hear of your troubles Subersibo. I hope you find a solution.

Well, it IS nasty, also busy. The low end of guitars, keys, vocals, the body of snare - everybody's there. The room often doesn't help the situation. Many sound guys automatically cut there to improve clarity.

 

[10xClean]

250hz is C3 on a 6 string and C2 on a 4, actually between B and C but we are splitting hairs. Without definition and clarity of attack the bass blends in with the kick, why bother. The past 30 years on a 6 has never before presented a problem, it has actually benefited my employment. But all of a sudden it's a issue. The other sound techs there know the issue but cannot get involved, understandably so. It is of no surprise that many of the agency bands that perform at the same club on that stage now bring their own sound techs. Once in a while we are lucky to have one of the other techs fill in and sonic harmony is restored. This cover band I work with is fronted by 2 female vocalist. Instrumentation is 2 guitars, bass and drums. No sequencing or backing tracks. This problem was brought to my attention from fellow bassists that frequent the club and know our sound well.

 

[Doug4321]

I always thought 100-300 Hz or thereabouts is the good stuff for bass, the more defined bass tone vs the more broad boomy muddy stuff below that. Maybe better to cut the guitars’ 250 Hz?

 

[10xClean]

I always thought 100-300 Hz or thereabouts is the good stuff for bass, the more defined bass tone vs the more broad boomy muddy stuff below that. Maybe better to cut the guitars’ 250 Hz?

Correct, the meat and potatoes of bass is in that area. Had this practice been applied to most of the well known bassists, you would never have known who they were. When bass is DI without any other sound source coming from the stage causing bleed over the "nasty" issue is being generated somewhere else. Granted this was an issue years ago before digital but with modern state of the art systems and quiet stages this should be a thing of the past. I've known of one other engineer who applied this practice, his recording studio is no longer in business.

 

[Subersibo]

I feel your pain. I have a issue where 250hz is cut in the FOH eq. For some reason the new house engineer is under the impression "250 is the nasty, you don't want that there" Any attempt to convince him otherwise has failed. Been a house band playing this establishment for 20 years. Full in house PA, 5 different stages. I play a 6 string, I live for hifi and tone. No stage amp and my DI is a Avalon U5. I don't use IEM's because I prefer to hear the house. Thanks to this new guy my bass sounds now like a old P-bass with 10 YO nylons. My only remedy is to start using a stage amp and accent the 250hz range. In 45+ years of live performance I have never encountered this. Sorry to hear of your troubles Subersibo. I hope you find a solution.

Thanks, 10xClean!
It isn’t so bad. I just have to bring my amp to make sure I still have a decent tone.
Different sound engineers have different ways of doing things, I guess sometimes we just have to adjust. Good to know from all the responses though that I’m not wrong and having it just coming out of the subs isn’t the way to go… most of the time.

 

[DJ Bebop]

I tried something like this at home. I brought home a powered JBL 18" sub and ran the DI out of my GK MB 500 to the input of the sub while it was in my garage - no PA mains to help with the full range. There was a sound coming out of the sub and while I know that his pwr'd speaker is designed to amplify only the lowest of low frequencies, what I was hearing wasn't anything that seemed to be particularly "useful" in terms of pushing my tone.

After this not-so-scientific experiment, I'd say that the idea of using only PA subs to amplify a bass sound at a show is absurd. It will make the bass player irrelevant. Bonus points: As soon as I ventured above the lowest notes on my E and A strings, my sound out of the sub almost completely disappeared. Muddy or non-existent? No thanks.

I'm probably going to find this sub a new home, since the band is happy with our mains and nobody seems to want one or two of these big boxes taking up space on our stage. I also get very good sound along with all the volume I want or need using a pair of 2x10 cabs in a vertical stack. I'd probably want some of my sound in a big PA system at a rather large venue, but my rig does great flying solo at our small and medium shows. If it ain't broke...

OTOH, if you run the sub with the GK MB 500 and one or two 2x10s, that's a good sound.

 

[pepj]

I'd get a recording of the house sound then make my call but not rating what I'm reading already.

 

[10xClean]

Thanks, 10xClean!
It isn’t so bad. I just have to bring my amp to make sure I still have a decent tone.
Different sound engineers have different ways of doing things, I guess sometimes we just have to adjust. Good to know from all the responses though that I’m not wrong and having it just coming out of the subs isn’t the way to go… most of the time.

Sound techs like anyone else have personal tastes that have a way of working their way into a mix. When they can't fit your needs then by all means do what you gotta do to make it work for you. At some point you may end up with several cabinet/head combinations go cover a host of venues. It's nice to have options. Stay true to your values.

 

[Stylee Mousse]

In my years as a live sound mixer my ethic was “provide sound reinforcement to the band, imposing as little as possible on the sound they make”

In practice this meant making sure vocals were clear, full, and loud enough and that the instruments were balanced and nasty shrill tones were respectfully smoothed. That the low end was a solid and proportionate base for the mix.

In my opinion the job was not to impose my tastes (except dislike of shrill frequencies that didn’t serve artistic musical ends) and also not to “fix” bad playing or singing by burying it (except when specifically requested)

so I also don’t enjoy some current mixing trends at too many shows

 

[Mike Caldwell]

In my years as a live sound mixer my ethic was “provide sound reinforcement to the band, imposing as little as possible on the sound they make”

In practice this meant making sure vocals were clear, full, and loud enough and that the instruments were balanced and nasty shrill tones were respectfully smoothed. That the low end was a solid and proportionate base for the mix.

In my opinion the job was not to impose my tastes (except dislike of shrill frequencies that didn’t serve artistic musical ends) and also not to “fix” bad playing or singing by burying it (except when specifically requested)

so I also don’t enjoy some current mixing trends at too many shows

True but if the PA / room has a lot of build up in the low mid are cutting some of that at the EQ is kind of needed to tame it down.

 

[Stylee Mousse]

True but if the PA / room has a lot of build up in the low mid are cutting some of that at the EQ is kind of needed to tame it down.

Absolutely! Ideally an install system will be tuned to the room, unf often done by tin eared ginks or people with measurement mics and no real knowledge..

 

[tekhedd]

Was that just from your perspective on the stage?

Nope, there were several bands playing on the same stage and we all sounded sorta the same. Unless the bass amp was cranked, it was just... bottom.

Honestly though, he could have just had the "bass" knob cranked and liked low end. I make a point of trusting the engineer to do what sounds right for the mix, but I mean it was there in the back of my head all night.

 

[hbarcat]

As numerous others have said, given the conditions you're describing, no competent sound tech would ever take the bass completely out of the mains and try to carry the room with just the subwoofers. That's just bizarre.

If I was in that situation, I'd speak up and politely, but firmly, request they run your bass full range in the PA. If they refused, then I'd walk.

I'm generally willing to concede a certain amount of less than ideal conditions and circumstances in my choice of bands to belong to, but there are some areas where compromise just isn't possible.

Allowing the sound tech to intentionally make my bass sound like an indistinct ball of mud in the house mix is definitely not something that I'm willing to put up with.

 

[hbarcat]

I wonder what the other band members would say if they were forced to play live shows with their instruments strictly slotted to narrow frequency bands.

The rhythm guitarist gets 300 - 500Hz.

The lead guitarist gets 600 - 800 Hz.

The drums get 30 - 50 Hz for the kick, 1000 - 1200 Hz for the snare and toms, and 15,000 - 16,000 Hz for the cymbals.

The singer has to go through an FX processor using the "lo-fi telephone" preset.

 

[hbarcat]

An additional aspect of this is that when everybody else in the band sounds good but the bass sounds like a pile of mud, they won't blame the sound guy. Everyone will just assume the bass player is to blame.

You're basically signing up to be publicly humiliated.