Bass through FOH subs only?

[Axtman]

My opinion is a musician's stuff is his/her responsibility. I've known many musicians that don't want people touching their stuff. That said, it does not hurt to ask if they need help.

I also feel if a piece of equipment is for the benefit of the group, not just an individual, then it is the group's resonsability to pack, set up, tear down and pack up.

Many years ago, I was in a band where I had a majority of the PA equipment AND a pickup truck.....a dangerous combination. One night at 3AM while unpacking in the rain I decided I had enough. The other band members were home asleep in their warm beds while I was alone struggling with equipment. So I quit the band and sold all my PA gear. I still have the truck and now I am just the bass player.

 

[guitarflinger]

One way to find out. Buy (or borrow) a Shure wireless transmitter. You can go quite a ways out into the crowd space (better during sound check than the show), and hear what your bass sounds like out there, as opposed to up on stage.

 

[Subersibo]

Here’s a news flash:
bass-through-the-subs only-soundguy is coming with us on a 5-day cruise to Mexico in May!
There goes my plan to leave the amp at home lol!
I remember the first gig I played with this band and said sound guy was there and we sounded great so maybe he does know what he’s doing.(?)
Maybe in the overall scheme of things what he did worked. Weird though that I was just playing through the subs one time at rehearsal when I didn’t bring my amp and I was looking around and no one seemed to mind.
Might try that again when we rehearse: leave the amp, play through the subs, play a song with the bassisest and muddy-est slap sound and see if they look at me funny.

 

[Doug4321]

Bass only thru subs reminds me of Led Zeppelin Paris 1969. Bass is really deep.

 

[KJMO]

They're labelled. Subs are for bass, and you're playing the bass . What more is there to know? I played drums for a band where they thought a sub could work for a bass amp, and their reason was that they took the name "bass" too literally. They thought it put out all bass (including the bass player). I guess it's obvious unless you don't know.

 

[Drredplate]

In just the subs and not the mains? That's idiotic. This sounds like a product of the 'bass should be felt but not heard' phenomenon that has plagued live sound for decades now. I understand the need for subs to reproduce certain frequencies out front, but honestly they should be shelved and used sparingly. You should - if your rig is being overpowered and rendered unusable, or you're told to turn it down to a point where you can't hear it reasonably - at least be put in your monitor wedge so you can hear some detail directly, and you should insist on having the bass put in the mains as well for clarity/attack..... and probably fire the sound guy at the end of the gig.

I agree with the above I saw fleetwood Mac live a couple of years ago and the gig was ruined for me by a kick drum which overpowered everything. I was looking forwards to hearing “ the chain” live but the notes on the bass where were just woolly rumbling.
I am of a mind that very often subs do more harm that good. As for putting the bass only through the subs that’s just crass. Would the lead guitarist tolerate his sound being mangled to that extent by the sound engineer?

 

[drumvsbass]

Here's some controversy. Ever thought that your tone might suck enough that the sound guy only wants to put you in the subs? I have unfortunately done sound for that kind of bassist. All treble, no bottom. Only fix, only subs to try and overpower stage volume of his amp which must have had at least 2 tweeters and only 10 inch drivers. Not saying this is you, just saying.

 

[groove pump]

Or, the way I figured out that bass only to the subs wouldn't work is to set up the PA with subs and tops, get things balanced to sound good. Than turn off the tops and listen to what's left. It probably won't be good. Than do the reverse and listen to how much more of the bass is present without the subs.

Or maybe that's just me.

I tried something like this at home. I brought home a powered JBL 18" sub and ran the DI out of my GK MB 500 to the input of the sub while it was in my garage - no PA mains to help with the full range. There was a sound coming out of the sub and while I know that his pwr'd speaker is designed to amplify only the lowest of low frequencies, what I was hearing wasn't anything that seemed to be particularly "useful" in terms of pushing my tone.

After this not-so-scientific experiment, I'd say that the idea of using only PA subs to amplify a bass sound at a show is absurd. It will make the bass player irrelevant. Bonus points: As soon as I ventured above the lowest notes on my E and A strings, my sound out of the sub almost completely disappeared. Muddy or non-existent? No thanks.

I'm probably going to find this sub a new home, since the band is happy with our mains and nobody seems to want one or two of these big boxes taking up space on our stage. I also get very good sound along with all the volume I want or need using a pair of 2x10 cabs in a vertical stack. I'd probably want some of my sound in a big PA system at a rather large venue, but my rig does great flying solo at our small and medium shows. If it ain't broke...

 

[MDBass]

I play with a band that only puts the bass through the subs so all I hear is rumble, no top end at all. (We play old school r&b and funky songs from the 70’s that have lots of slapped bass parts.)
I had them put me through the main speakers and it sounded better but they seemed to find this strange. They were struggling with the mixer at some shows so they brought in a sound guy to fix the problems at rehearsal. First thing the guy did was to take my bass completely out of the mains and put it through just the subs again. I was planning to just go direct using a preamp/di but I guess I’ll just have to continue bringing my amp and turning it up to get a full-range sound. Otherwise we should play reggae lol.

The people running the FOH, both the band and this “sound guy” they hired, literally have no idea what they’re doing.

 

[tekhedd]

...squeeze your entire dynamic range into a 40-106 hz cubby

My JBL subs go up to about 80. I'm not a "highpass" guy, I love me some bootsy. But is there really a "below 100Hz" bass club out there?

Actually, thinking about it, I played a backlined show recently where I'm pretty sure the bass was only in the subs and it was downright weird. At the time I was just grateful there was so much of it, but honestly I can't say it sounded what we call "good."

 

[Mike Caldwell]

I tried something like this at home. I brought home a powered JBL 18" sub and ran the DI out of my GK MB 500 to the input of the sub while it was in my garage - no PA mains to help with the full range. There was a sound coming out of the sub and while I know that his pwr'd speaker is designed to amplify only the lowest of low frequencies, what I was hearing wasn't anything that seemed to be particularly "useful" in terms of pushing my tone.

After this not-so-scientific experiment, I'd say that the idea of using only PA subs to amplify a bass sound at a show is absurd. It will make the bass player irrelevant. Bonus points: As soon as I ventured above the lowest notes on my E and A strings, my sound out of the sub almost completely disappeared. Muddy or non-existent? No thanks.

I'm probably going to find this sub a new home, since the band is happy with our mains and nobody seems to want one or two of these big boxes taking up space on our stage. I also get very good sound along with all the volume I want or need using a pair of 2x10 cabs in a vertical stack. I'd probably want some of my sound in a big PA system at a rather large venue, but my rig does great flying solo at our small and medium shows. If it ain't broke...

If you have the subs I would look at adding at least one to the PA system.

 

[Mike Caldwell]

My JBL subs go up to about 80. I'm not a "highpass" guy, I love me some bootsy. But is there really a "below 100Hz" bass club out there?

Actually, thinking about it, I played a backlined show recently where I'm pretty sure the bass was only in the subs and it was downright weird. At the time I was just grateful there was so much of it, but honestly I can't say it sounded what we call "good."

Was that just from your perspective on the stage?

 

[dkelley]

I play with a band that only puts the bass through the subs so all I hear is rumble, no top end at all. (We play old school r&b and funky songs from the 70’s that have lots of slapped bass parts.)
I had them put me through the main speakers and it sounded better but they seemed to find this strange. They were struggling with the mixer at some shows so they brought in a sound guy to fix the problems at rehearsal. First thing the guy did was to take my bass completely out of the mains and put it through just the subs again. I was planning to just go direct using a preamp/di but I guess I’ll just have to continue bringing my amp and turning it up to get a full-range sound. Otherwise we should play reggae lol.

that's absolutely incompetent use of speaker crossovers. How do they even DO that?

Anyway, yes, that is just wrong, and should never ever happen. bass guitar is mostly ABOVE subwoofer frequencies.

 

[swarfrat]

I'm puzzled at the concept that they even have a bus for subs instead of just a crossover.

Someone worked pretty hard to do it wrong.

 

[Mike Caldwell]

I'm puzzled at the concept that they even have a bus for subs instead of just a crossover.

Someone worked pretty hard to do it wrong.

Subs on an aux is fairly common and talked about here and in other threads.
There is still a crossover involved so that the subs are only receiving frequencies from maybe 35hz up to around a 100hz, from 100hz and up go the mains.
A post aux feed the subs and any channel that needs to be in the subs that aux send is turned up to the needed level.
That channel is also feeding the mains so the source of channels sent to the subs is also going the mains, since the aux is post fade it tracks along with changes made to the main overall mix.

 

[Scotty4string]

What amuses me is how universally (and correctly) despised this approach is by everyone here.
But isn't it all-too-often EXACTLY how the bass sounds at venues?

That wallowing, shapeless blob of low-frequency muck...where everything is loud, yet nothing is clear.
It's like trying to read a book by only looking at the edges of the pages.

I agree. Almost every concert I've heard in the last several years the bass has sounded like mud. The only exceptions have been small clubs with bands with no sound men. Mix might not be perfect but most of the time the sounds coming off the stage sound like the instruments are supposed to.

 

[Antman3820]

Just responding to the first post. I went through the same exact situation last year. I feel better knowing I’m not the only one. Happy to say someone got the hint and now I go through the full system. Funny thing is, they seem to think that it must be me that’s doing something different, that the sound improved…..same bass, same pedal board.

 

[dkelley]

I agree. Almost every concert I've heard in the last several years the bass has sounded like mud. The only exceptions have been small clubs with bands with no sound men. Mix might not be perfect but most of the time the sounds coming off the stage sound like the instruments are supposed to.

in almost every concert I've seen for years, the bass has sounded just great, and was clearly not bused through only the subs. I'm marginally concerned though that you found many if not most WERE apparently bussed through the subs..... there is a bad trend out there if FOH engineers are doing that commonly!

 

[steve_rolfeca]

I agree that it's not a great way of working, especially in situations where the bassist is being pushed to either turn his amp down, or run ampless.

But I have met knowledgeable PA techs who will do this when dealing with budget systems that have some extra poke in the subs, but inadequate top clusters.

If there's not enough cone area or wattage to go around, the rest of the mix may be overwhelming a couple of smallish powered top bins, modulating the vocals and making them unintelligible.

In that situation, pulling the bass and the kick out of the mix restore some clarity and headroom. Let's face it, the audience is usually far more interested in the singer(s), than the bass player, and the drummer's right foot...

Not the optimum solution, but the audience is less likely to notice a bit of mush in the low end, if the rest of the mix is sounding better.

Especially if the bassist has a decent amp, and is willing to work with the sound guy to push his own mids out into the room.

As always, it's better to communicate than to sulk in a corner. If you can get a dialog going with the sound guy, it should be possible to get a decent balance between your stack and the subs in that situation.

 

[Oatis]

I would e.q. my amp to be mostly 100hz on up. This might sound ok if you can also hear the subs.