Basses Using Counterfeit Fender headstock decals

[ROON]

excuse me?

You're excused.

there's a difference of scale between individual folks hacking their instruments and someone selling them that way for a profit. using a fender decal on the headstock of an instrument and then selling it new, regardless of "what the customer knows" is counterfeiting.

And so is applying a Fender decal to a non-Fender bass, regardless of whether you intend to sell it or not. The definition of counter fitting is to "make a copy of with the intent to deceive".

Not only is it counter fitting, it's also unauthorised use of someone else's logo.

this should be able to be discussed without insulting people.

I did not intend to insult anyone, and if I did, they should stop being thin skinned. Someone thinks your opinions/actions are garbage? Live with it, because they won't be the only one.

 

[backline112]

Geez guys, since when did talkbass become the soapbox for the high and mighty sinless bass men who threatening 'contacting fender' over someone's project....seriously who gives that great of a $#!+ ?

That's the same attitude people adopt when defending music piracy. In the end it can only damage the industry, and I'm going to be part of that industry (soon,) so I care.

 

[stflbn]

There are ways around putting an exact knockoff logo on a headstock. You 'can' adapt a logo so that it gives the initial appearance of an expected brand, but when viewed closer you see that it's something different.

But... that would hurt sales.



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[rustynuts]

If you go to his site he clearly shows that he is not passing off his basses as Fenders at all.

Perhaps not, but he is enabling others to pass the bass off as a Fender.

Of course David Certain could be using Allparts or other licensed necks, which would be absolutely fine for his own decals. But he still can't apply fender decals, even if the customer requests it and knows it is not a Fender neck. I think he is at least aware of that from his prior post, so I hope those are genuine fender necks with the logo.

Given the OP's earlier statements and the fact that it's a 21 fret neck with an overhang, there's little chance it's a Fender neck.

The decals themselves are probably illegal to sell (or distribute) though, unless he is licensed to do so.

I don't know if distributing them for "free" apart from the bass really does shield him from liability. Hope he has looked into that. Sounds like one of those gray area cases in court. My guess would be that the court would side with Fender.

Even distributed for free it would probably be illegal. Distributing (or enabling the distribution of) someone else's intellectual property for free? Napster? Pirate Bay?

 

[rustynuts]

There are ways around putting an exact knockoff logo on a headstock. You 'can' adapt a logo so that it gives the initial appearance of an expected brand, but when viewed closer you see that it's something different.

But... that would hurt sales.

.

I once saw a "Bender" Stratocaster in a pawn shop. Looked like a Fender logo from a distance.

 

[stflbn]

Yup. I saw a Sladovsky recently that was an SX. Actually pretty convincing.

Personally I had a Musicman Stingray5 by OLP that drove bass players here in nashville buggy because they loved it's tone until they came up and found out it was an OLP then would start getting all critical about what was wrong with the sound. :: shrug ::


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[Darkstrike]

Yup. I saw a Sladovsky recently that was an SX. Actually pretty convincing.

Personally I had a Musicman Stingray5 by OLP that drove bass players here in nashville buggy because they loved it's tone until they came up and found out it was an OLP then would start getting all critical about what was wrong with the sound. :: shrug ::


.

You know the tone changes once you get a nice look at the logo, its a scientific fact.

 

[Tumbao]

IMO, anyone who buys pre-made parts and assembles them to make an electric guitar is not a luthier anyway, and you get what you pay for.

Uuff! I like that!

 

[stflbn]

Stop by the Luthier forums here and you'll find that a great percentage of guys building quality basses don't consider themselves Luthiers... they consider themselves 'builders'. Or IMHO the realistic and non-egotistical ones do.

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[john turner]

I did not intend to insult anyone, and if I did, they should stop being thin skinned. Someone thinks your opinions/actions are garbage? Live with it, because they won't be the only one.

you are hardly in the position of attempting to give me life lessons. i've been doing pretty much everything i do every minute of the day longer than you've been alive.

i'm well aware that many folks are going to consider what i say to be disagreeable, and that's cool. it takes all kinds, and i certainly don't agree most of what i see every day. i, just like everyone else, could fill this forum with valid and logical diatribes against what i perceive to be the rampant idiocy i see around me everywhere, including here.

that, however, is not how we run things here. we discuss things like adults, focusing on issues, and not insults, and treat one another with respect, especially when we disagree. that's the number one rule at talkbass, and it will be followed.

regardless, in this case, however, there is little to disagree about, at least as far as the facts are concerned.

selling a new instrument with another company's logo on the headstock is counterfeiting, by legal definition, unless one is licensed to do so. this is regardless of what the customer wants, or what a great guy the builder is eyebrow: ) or what a great player he is or anything else.

i asked initially in this thread because i was not aware that this builder engaged in this practice - i thought all he did was his own thing, with his own brand sticker on the headstock. i mentioned involving a rep from fender on this topic because i was aware that a lot of industry reps participate here at talkbass, often incognito, and i was curious as to their take on that.

there are a lot of builders who build fender-style instruments without resorting to counterfeiting their logo who are successful - i would bet that roger sadowsky would not put a fender logo on one of his instruments for a million bucks, unless he was licensed to do so by fender themselves. i'm sure the same goes for brian barrett with his lowend jazzes and nino valenti as well.

beyond the legalities and ethics of the issue, the simple fact that eventually you'll get caught and get reamed should be sufficient deterent.

this does, however beg the question - maybe david certain is licensed by fender to do this? has anyone bothered to check this? before we convict the guy, we might want to see if this is the case.

 

[Mr. Ray]

The post started as a fellow bass player excited about getting his "Jaco" style clone. I am sure the mood has changed from excitement to a bit of stress. Now that bass has a very interesting story to go with. I hope that he can enjoy his new bass.

Warmoth and Allparts make standard 21 fret necks.
Fender, MightyMite and Edenhaus make standard 20 fret necks.
The bass has a 21 fret neck with a Fender logo.
2 + 2 does not equal 4.

 

[rustynuts]

Stop by the Luthier forums here and you'll find that a great percentage of guys building quality basses don't consider themselves Luthiers... they consider themselves 'builders'. Or IMHO the realistic and non-egotistical ones do.

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I'd like to see TB add a Builders & Modifications subforum myself. While I've rebuilt several basses and assembled several others from parts I don't feel......comfortable(?)....participating in a luthiers' forum. I'm just now starting to pick up routers, etc., so maybe one day but for now I'm just a modifier, assembler or, if you stretch the term a bit, a builder.

 

[zenrad]

Stop by the Luthier forums here and you'll find that a great percentage of guys building quality basses don't consider themselves Luthiers... they consider themselves 'builders'. Or IMHO the realistic and non-egotistical ones do.

+1

"Builder" is a better term for one who assembles from pre-made parts. OTOH, I make large pieces of wood into small pieces of wood and build all parts of instruments except for hardware (tuners) yet I still don't call myself a Luthier.

My last build was a close replica of a 1937 Herman Hauser classical guitar totally hand made including all wood bindings and purfling. However, there are so many far far better than me that I don't feel I deserve the term "Luthier" - not yet anyway. So in that respect I call myself a "builder" or apprentice Luthier at best.

 

[john turner]

The post started as a fellow bass player excited about getting his "Jaco" style clone. I am sure the mood has changed from excitement to a bit of stress. Now that bass has a very interesting story to go with. I hope that he can enjoy his new bass.

Warmoth and Allparts make standard 21 fret necks.
Fender, MightyMite and Edenhaus make standard 20 fret necks.
The bass has a 21 fret neck with a Fender logo.
2 + 2 does not equal 4.

i think it's good that the original poster understands that this neck is not a fender neck, despite the logo on the 'stock. he did, after all, order the instrument. if he is not getting what he wanted, he should not be required to keep it.

 

[zenrad]

I'd like to see TB add a Builders & Modifications subforum myself. While I've rebuilt several basses and assembled several others from parts I don't feel......comfortable(?)....participating in a luthiers' forum. I'm just now starting to pick up routers, etc., so maybe one day but for now I'm just a modifier, assembler or, if you stretch the term a bit, a builder.

Check out Luthiers Forum and also [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

There is plenty of info on those sites and a bunch of great folks. The MIMF crowd is, well, a little particular about stuff (strictly moderated and sticklers for punctuation and grammar), but there are some great builders there who, like the folks here and most other Luthiers, are more than happy to share their insights and give advice.

I've found both of those sites to be inspirational and a valuable resource. Get a scrap piece of lumber and your router and jump in!

 

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Bill, take a closer look at the picture. Three very different necks with the same decal and then two more necks in the background with nothing on the headstock.

If it quacks like a duck....

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I think if it is the case, it was a major mistake for certainbass to make (if it is as it seems).

And anyway, wouldn't it look better to be able to say you had a custom bass as opposed to just another fender?

 

[Shadi]

Isn't it also illegal to cover someone else's songs at a gig, make money off of it (cash no less) without licensing....or paying taxes....?????

 

[ROON]

you are hardly in the position of attempting to give me life lessons. i've been doing pretty much everything i do every minute of the day longer than you've been alive.

So... you've considered "garbage" an insult for longer than I've been alive?

regardless, in this case, however, there is little to disagree about, at least as far as the facts are concerned.

selling a new instrument with another company's logo on the headstock is counterfeiting, by legal definition, unless one is licensed to do so. this is regardless of what the customer wants, or what a great guy the builder is eyebrow: ) or what a great player he is or anything else.

If you care to glance back at my posts, you'll see I never defended David Certain, or disagreed with you for that matter. I simply pointed out the fact that you have a large double standard. I haven't seen you dob anyone in to Fender rep's because they have stuck a Fender decal on their SX or other Fender copy. And yes, that IS counter fitting, AND unauthorised use of a trademark. Yet, you will rat out David Certain. Interesting, no?

Don't you think that industry reps would be just as upset seeing dozens... No, hundreds of people sticking Fender decals on non-Fender basses?

 

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Isn't it also illegal to cover someone else's songs at a gig, make money off of it (cash no less) without licensing....or paying taxes....?????

Don't know about in the US, but in the UK venues that play live music or even play the radio need to pay liscencing fee's on a yearly basis.

That covers that issue, it isn't a responsibility (or cost) of the band as far as I'm aware.

 

[bassteban]

It's *counterfeit*