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Basses Using Counterfeit Fender headstock decals

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#41
Well, this is what david himself wrote in this old post here... http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6030290&postcount=106
Wonder if he changed his mind or if they are really Fender necks. I'm listening with an open mind.

"As one who has built basses and put Fender decals on it, I'm against it. I quit doing it. Any Fender decal you buy is counterfeit unless you're an authorized Fender dealer and get it from Fender. Sure, I could build you a bass with a Fender decal, and we'll both know it's not a Fender, but how about down the line when it ends up in a pawn shop or music store as a used bass?

Leo Fender invented the electric bass. Although he's dead and someone else owns the brand, I think we should still honor Leo by not ripping off his trademark. It's a moral issue to me. And, no, I don't have to have a decal to feel good about playing my bass.

I since designed my own decals. They look Fender-ish from the stage. Also, I think a blank headstock still looks good, has a custom look to it." written by DavidCertain
 
#44
bongomania said:
Well, he was banned. So if he does come back, it would be under a new name, which is against the rules...
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well his profile doesn't "LOOK" banned and he has post on 3-25 on a thread that wasn't locked. The last thread he posted in that was locked was not because of him... http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=519384&page=2

You may be correct, but my question is how do you know he is banned and why was he (if you know?)
 
#45
bishop55 said:
+1, and from a forum mod no less.

Let the poor guy enjoy his bass.
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+2, Some people get so hyped up on this site about little things like this. Reminds me of little kids. If you go to his site he clearly shows that he is not passing off his basses as Fenders at all. If you do some research of people who actually own his basses you will see the satisfaction in the quality product he builds. The guy is an unreal player, he knows how to build a bass, and builds it as if its his own. To the OP, I can assure you that you will be pleasently surprised with your bass, and if not, Dave will make it right....
 
#46
Also I must mention that you can't use a Fender headstock shape unless it is an actual Fender or Fender licensed neck. Allparts, Warmoth, and Mighty Mite (among others) have fender licenses to use the headstock shape (but not the logo, which can only be used by Fender. Fender has never licensed the logo to my knowledge.)

USA custom guitars is an example of a fine neck maker that doesn't have a fender license. They cannot make necks with Fender headstocks, or use their decals with fender headstock necks unless they got the necks from Fender or a licensed maker. This would also apply to CertainBass, as well as many unlicensed Fender knockoffs.

Of course David Certain could be using Allparts or other licensed necks, which would be absolutely fine for his own decals. But he still can't apply fender decals, even if the customer requests it and knows it is not a Fender neck. I think he is at least aware of that from his prior post, so I hope those are genuine fender necks with the logo.

Of course there are some people on here who apply Fender decals to their own private builds. This is just as against the law as any builder doing it (you cannot violate a trademark for personal use either, but if there is no money to go after then Fender won't pursue it.) As a company making money, like certainbass, it would be prudent to not add fender logo's to anything.

I am still not sure if certainbass is adding a Fender logo to any necks. If he isn't then he is doing nothing wrong. If he is, then he is probably breaking the law (I am no lawyer but I took a business law class from one in college.)

In short, fender headstock decals are illegal unless Fender has them or they are already applied on a Fender made neck from the factory, or under some other agreement from fender.
 
#47
john turner said:
ah, so that's an american made fender neck on that bass? didn't know they parted them out like that. interesting.
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you can actually get fender necks on ebay from a fender dealer. i don't know if he gets them as new or dissasembles fender basses to get them (or if you can call them new if they came from a new dissasembled bass.)

At the same time if you bass was $450 he must have gotten a reallly good deal on the neck if it is a real fender neck.
 
#48
Shadi said:
Geez guys, since when did talkbass become the soapbox for the high and mighty sinless bass men who threatening 'contacting fender' over someone's project....seriously who gives that great of a $#!+ ?
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It's not a "project," it's a business. If you look up David Certain under his name it says "sole prorietor, certainbass." Businesses are held to certain standards and laws.
 
#50
superfunk47 said:
He puts the Fender logo on the headstock if and only if you order it that way. He has his own logo that he'll apply if you ask for it, or he can leave it blank. He's not selling any of these as Fenders, he's just going by what people order. Doesn't make him a fraud.
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Actually a business MAY NOT apply a fender decal to anything, unless the business is owned by Fender, or is licensed to use it's logo. It doesn't matter if a person orders it. It is STILL not legal.

As I said before, it is just as illegal for individuals to apply fender decals for personal use but Fender is not going to go after anyone who is not making a profit. They will go after a business though...
 
#51
WarriorJoe7 said:
well his profile doesn't "LOOK" banned and he has post on 3-25 on a thread that wasn't locked. ...You may be correct, but my question is how do you know he is banned and why was he (if you know?)
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Looks like the ban was lifted. I'm pretty sure what I said was true fairly recently, but you're right-it doesn't look like that's the case now.
 
#52
collicsws6z28 said:
+2, Some people get so hyped up on this site about little things like this.
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-1. Potential trademark infringement is not a "little thing." Actually as forum moderator it would be his responsibility to look into something like this if he is aware of it.

If you didn't know that potential trademark infringement is serious, only then I can understand the comment you made...
 
#55
The decals themselves are probably illegal to sell (or distribute) though, unless he is licensed to do so.

I don't know if distributing them for "free" apart from the bass really does shield him from liability. Hope he has looked into that. Sounds like one of those gray area cases in court. My guess would be that the court would side with Fender.

My guess: The only way around it would be if someone else not related to Nash distributed the decal. But even then that person might be able to be sued for monetary damages beyond what the decals were sold for, if fender could prove that they lost business because of it.

I looked and i can't find any info anywhere about Nash sending fender decals with his basses. From his site though

"I do not sell Fender® guitars and I am in no way affiliated with FMIC / Fender®. Parts that look like Fender® designs are MFG under license by Fender or need no such agreement. If you want a Fender, buy a Fender.

In fact, I am in no way affiliated with anyone or anything except for my wife and kids. If you are actually reading this much stuff on my site, please stop, turn off the computer and find something more fun to do with your time. Since you are still reading on, turn in your cable TV box, unplug your television and seek healthy connections with other human beings. Stop ingesting the manipulations of corporations who's sole function is to make you feel inadequate without buying their products and ideas. A bigger wallet, faster car, smaller waistband or younger spouse will not make you happy.

Fender®, Strat®, Stratocaster®, Relic®, Tele®, and Telecaster® are registered trademarks of Fender Musical Instruments Corp. Nashguitars is in no way affiliated with FMIC and no Fender® warranty applies. Some headstock designs are trademarked by Fender Musical Instruments Corp. All necks available at Nashguitars using these headstock designs are licensed by Fender®.

The Nashguitars custom shop is in the business of custom building & superior aging of guitars and parts and is in no way implying that we are building or selling Fender® guitars. Some parts that I offer and or use are bought wholesale from Fender dealers and then put through my custom aging processes, therefore you may see a Fender logo or stamp, however these are not new Fender® parts and once again, no Fender® warranty applies. Nashguitars warranties all of these items. "

and he has a faq page or 2 where it looks like he had ro go through the process of answering objections...
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]



bongomania said:
IIRC he does not put the decals on the bass. If someone buys one of his basses and installs a Fender decal, it's on them.
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#56
Haha, reminds me of that one Family guy episode, "almost as much fun as copyright infringement"

Im neither for nor against this guy, because for a while Nash Basses too had Fender logos on the headstocks of select basses and I feel that both him and his basses are well respected on this forum...
 
#57
superfunk47 said:
He puts the Fender logo on the headstock if and only if you order it that way. He has his own logo that he'll apply if you ask for it, or he can leave it blank. He's not selling any of these as Fenders, he's just going by what people order. Doesn't make him a fraud.
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actually, it makes him a counterfeiter, regardless of what his customer wants.
 
#58
bishop55 said:
+1, and from a forum mod no less.

Let the poor guy enjoy his bass.
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i don't see anyone stopping him from enjoying his bass (except maybe those folks who are pointing out to him that he did not get what he thought he ordered).

and i'm a forum adminstrator, not a mod. it's part of my job description (yeah, it's a job) to investigate this kind of thing in my forums.
 
#59
ROON said:
While you're at it, are you going to tell Fender about all the SX guys who use water transfers to put Fender decals on their basses? What about the blokes who have Fender decals on their Warmoth, Mighty Mite and USACG builds?

What a load of garbage. :rolleyes:
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excuse me? there's a difference of scale between individual folks hacking their instruments and someone selling them that way for a profit. using a fender decal on the headstock of an instrument and then selling it new, regardless of "what the customer knows" is counterfeiting.

let me take this opportunity to remind folks of the respect rule. this should be able to be discussed without insulting people.
 
#60
Just found this thread - I gotta tell ya, as a part-time builder, necks are not all that hard to make. In fact, it's one of my favorite parts of a build. IMO, anyone who buys pre-made parts and assembles them to make an electric guitar is not a luthier anyway, and you get what you pay for.
 
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