Basses Using Counterfeit Fender headstock decals

[Mr.Bassie720]

I have been struggling with whether or not to post on this thread. Mostly because I did not want to disract from the OP. However it seems quite a few of you beat me to it.
I love Fender style basses. My first bass was a P-bass copy. My second was a Fender jazz bass that I modded with a Badass bridge and EMG pickups. Sadly that bass was stolen. It was replaced with a Fender jazz bass that was also altered by the addition of a Modulus jazz-style neck. To make a long story short, most of my basses have been jazz-style basses. For my taste, they are the perfect platform to be upgraded with high-end parts.
Here is something that happened recently that might make some of you cringe in horror. I did a parts-based build with USACG jazz-bass body and spent a princely sum on a Status jazz bass neck, Hipshot hardware, Aguillar pre, and so on. Okay, here's the onion. The body has been refinished in surf green. The Status headstock has been sprayed to match. And for my own personal aesthetic, a Fender Jazz decal was used. Why? Because I like it! I am obviously not trying to fool anyone into thinking this is a true Fender bass. Fender has nothing in its arsenal that sounds anywhere near as good as this, including custom shop.If you turn it around it says "made in England" on the neck and the neckplate has a monkey engraved on it. So while some of you may accuse me of counterfeiting, twisted morality and the like, it is just something that I did because I love the Fender Jazz Bass style, and the detail on the headstock is part of that for me. Sorry for the long post, but there it is.

To the OP. Enjoy your bass.

 

[NWB]

I have been struggling with whether or not to post on this thread. Mostly because I did not want to disract from the OP. However it seems quite a few of you beat me to it.
I love Fender style basses. My first bass was a P-bass copy. My second was a Fender jazz bass that I modded with a Badass bridge and EMG pickups. Sadly that bass was stolen. It was replaced with a Fender jazz bass that was also altered by the addition of a Modulus jazz-style neck. To make a long story short, all of my basses have been jazz-style basses. For my taste, they are the perfect platform to be upgraded with high-end parts.
Here is something that happened recently that might make some of you cringe in horror. I did a parts-based build with USACG jazz-bass body and spent a princely sum on a Status jazz bass neck, Hipshot hardware, Aguillar pre, and so on. Okay, here's the onion. The body has been refinished in surf green. The Status headstock has been sprayed to match. And for my own personal aesthetic, a Fender Jazz decal was used. Why? Because I like it! I am obviously not trying to fool anyone into thinking this is a true Fender bass. Fender has nothing in its arsenal that sounds anywhere near as good as this, including custom shop.If you turn it around it says "made in England" on the neck and the neckplate has a monkey engraved on it. So while some of you may accuse me of counterfeiting, twisted morality and the like, it is just something that I did because I love the Fender Jazz Bass style, and the detail on the headstock is part of that for me. Sorry for the long post, but there it is.

To the OP. Enjoy your bass.

'Tis all fine.

A big difference though between you sticking a decal on your personal bass versus a business selling basses as "Fender". There are a whole lot of issues, both moral and practical, about someone building and/or selling knockoffs.

I've read several postings by Mr. Certain and he doesn't strike me as the sort of person who would go into counterfeiting. I'm a bit puzzled here.

The photographic evidence looks pretty bad, but that's something that could also be faked. Fake on fake??

 

[DavidCertain]

Hi Guys,
one thing you got right is that a customer would write to tell me the same guys are violating rule number 1 and slamming my character AGAIN. Whatever it takes for you to feel some self worth, go ahead. Like the guys with a little thingy has to have a huge truck and a huge dog and talks real loud. Then there's tons of gear, same thing.

There is so much you have wrong, I don't know where to start. Let's start with I have never been banned from TalkBass.com. And that's not going to ever happen either. Would some of you guys know a Fender if it slapped you in the face? There is no infringement. I love Fender, I just happen to make better basses today than they do.

I wish I had the time for an average of 3.7 posts a day, but I'd rather be riding my bicycle. the weather is great here, and all praises to the Creator!

Don't forget to check out my website if you have any questions.

Peace,
David
CertainBass.com

 

[J. Crawford]

Here we go.. :scowl:

I actually kind of chuckled at that post. But thats just me.

 

[superfunk47]

'Tis all fine.

A big difference though between you sticking a decal on your personal bass versus a business selling basses as "Fender". There are a whole lot of issues, both moral and practical, about someone building and/or selling knockoffs.

I've read several postings by Mr. Certain and he doesn't strike me as the sort of person who would go into counterfeiting. I'm a bit puzzled here.

The photographic evidence looks pretty bad, but that's something that could also be faked. Fake on fake??

He's not selling them as Fenders. He's selling them as Certain basses, which happen to have a Fender decal by customer order. If any decieving is taking place, it's used ones being sold as Fenders, and that's completely up to the owner of the bass. It's not Mr. Certain's fault in the least. He never tried to pass it off as anything it wasn't, only to make the bass that his customer ordered. If that makes him a fraud/counterfeiter/whatever, then so be it. But those are pretty twisted parameters.

FWIW, I left the headstock of my Warmoth P blank. But what's so wrong about someone wanting that Fender look on something that's not a Fender? This is completely removed from whether or not they're trying to sell it as one - that's a whole different story. But for a bass to "have to be a real Fender" to have a Fender decal, that just seems arbitrary and an unnecessary invasion of other people's business. What do you care if they want their bass to look like a Fender? Is that such a hard thing to live with?

IMO, of course.

 

[ZionBound]

Fella's and Ladies can we please agree on the fact that alot of our basses have ALOT of "after-market" parts. Do we argue about putting a Hipshot bridge or some Bartolini pickups. Fender is a "grown up company" they can handle any of their own copywright issues. We need to all agree to disagree. Some of us are gear-heads and some of us are players and some of us are both. It has been said before that what really matters is the playability of the instrument. I am a firm believer that one man's junk is another mans treasure. Would we have the same attitude if we were talking about another persons car, or job, or living situation. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE take it for what its worth and turn the focus back to the music and not what makes it.

p.s. I really wanna try a broom stick on top of a box

 

[lowtide]

p.s. I really wanna try a broom stick on top of a box

Tried it . . . squished the box~!

 

[Thingus995]

^ good call and plus 1 although its a digeridoo for me

 

[WarriorJoe7]

No offense, but corrected

Well, for what it's worth, Fender owns the trademark on the logo and the name, they own the patent and copyright on the headstock shape but they waited way too long and DO NOT own the patent to the body shape.

no copyright is involved. You patent a physical design or invention. You trademark a logo or name. Different laws apply to each:

The headstock patent will expire soon and anyone can use it. The body could never be patented.

The trademark never expires unless the company ceases to operate, which then it becomes available.

Copyrights apply only to media. Fender could have copyrighted how to make a Fender bass, but a copy only protects the paper itself from being copied and distributed. The actual carrying out of the plans are up for grabs by anyone.

A gray area... could the outline of the headstock be trademarked? not sure, but I don't think so, and if it could it would only apply to media... not the shaping of wood.

 

[WarriorJoe7]

Bottom line. If someone operates a bonafide musical instrument business, they should not apply a Fender logo to anything without permission... by law.

Was that 21 fret neck made in a Fender factory? Was that logo applied by someone other then Fender (or an authorized person?) Does the person who applied it have the permission to do so? And one more question that Fender will consider before it pursues anything... If the decal was applied without permission, was it done under the guise of a legitimate business?

I hope the OP enjoys his bass, but it is up to us as a community to spot questionable practices and to do exactly that... question it. If it turns out that everything is legit, I will personally delete all my replies.

It would be good to get answers from the source and have them verified by someone who knows.

 

[groooooove]

Hi Guys,
one thing you got right is that a customer would write to tell me the same guys are violating rule number 1 and slamming my character AGAIN. Whatever it takes for you to feel some self worth, go ahead. Like the guys with a little thingy has to have a huge truck and a huge dog and talks real loud. Then there's tons of gear, same thing.

There is so much you have wrong, I don't know where to start. Let's start with I have never been banned from TalkBass.com. And that's not going to ever happen either. Would some of you guys know a Fender if it slapped you in the face? There is no infringement. I love Fender, I just happen to make better basses today than they do.

I wish I had the time for an average of 3.7 posts a day, but I'd rather be riding my bicycle. the weather is great here, and all praises to the Creator!

Don't forget to check out my website if you have any questions.

Peace,
David
CertainBass.com

before i read this, i did not feel strongly about this topic. now all of a sudden i feel like you are very in the wrong. what do you mean, there is no infringement? you put fender logos on your necks.. and you give no explanation for it other than "i dont know where to start." its one thing if it was requested by the customer to have a fender logo, but the OP claims he requested a legitimate fender neck, which he clearly is not getting. if you were smart you'd want a good reputation on the best online source for information related to bass equipment... if you really were making quality fender - copies (without the logos/headstocks) this website would probably provide you with a ton of business. nothing advertises better than a happy customer..

you happen to make better basses than fender? ill let everyone else make comments on that one, im not even going to bother..

 

[WarriorJoe7]

Dang people, quick to jump to conclusions much?

He puts the Fender logo on the headstock if and only if you order it that way. He has his own logo that he'll apply if you ask for it, or he can leave it blank. He's not selling any of these as Fenders, he's just going by what people order. Doesn't make him a fraud.

Let's put some historical perspective on this by changing the product. First from that 1990's.

Let's say you are in Asia and there is a guy who is a very good watchmaker who can make watches that look just like and operate the same as rolexes. Let's say that he will put the rolex logo on the watch at your request even if you know it's not a rolex. Is this fraud? What would Rolex say? What would the court say? (You can do this with nike shoes also)

Now from the 2000s

Let's say that there is a guy who can make copies of windows software and generate new keys for free. He generates the copies for very little cost so he sells them at 10% of the price of microsoft software. It functions just as windows should and all the logos come up as it would on a real microsoft licensed disk. But because you wanted a copy he provided it. Is this fraud? (you could do the same more or less with music.)

 

[WarriorJoe7]

Let me say that I am not questioning your character, as your character is already on display in other threads, for people to draw their own conclusions (notice that I am staying neutral here.)

I AM however questioning your product, and it is my honor to do so about anything that I am aware of. It is a great resource where we discuss and debate merits of makers, basses, and players, and people are made aware of things. this is a good thing.

Like I said if everything is legit I will personally delete all my replies.

Hi Guys,
one thing you got right is that a customer would write to tell me the same guys are violating rule number 1 and slamming my character AGAIN. Whatever it takes for you to feel some self worth, go ahead. Like the guys with a little thingy has to have a huge truck and a huge dog and talks real loud. Then there's tons of gear, same thing.

There is so much you have wrong, I don't know where to start. Let's start with I have never been banned from TalkBass.com. And that's not going to ever happen either. Would some of you guys know a Fender if it slapped you in the face? There is no infringement. I love Fender, I just happen to make better basses today than they do.

I wish I had the time for an average of 3.7 posts a day, but I'd rather be riding my bicycle. the weather is great here, and all praises to the Creator!

Don't forget to check out my website if you have any questions.

Peace,
David
CertainBass.com

 

[superfunk47]

Let's put some historical perspective on this by changing the product. First from that 1990's.

Let's say you are in Asia and there is a guy who is a very good watchmaker who can make watches that look just like and operate the same as rolexes. Let's say that he will put the rolex logo on the watch at your request even if you know it's not a rolex. Is this fraud? What would Rolex say? What would the court say? (You can do this with nike shoes also)

Now from the 2000s

Let's say that there is a guy who can make copies of windows software and generate new keys for free. He generates the copies for very little cost so he sells them at 10% of the price of microsoft software. It functions just as windows should and all the logos come up as it would on a real microsoft licensed disk. But because you wanted a copy he provided it. Is this fraud? (you could do the same more or less with music.)

As far as the first example goes, if I ordered a watch custom made from him, and I specifically requested a Rolex logo, then yes, I would expect a Rolex logo on it. He's not selling as a Rolex, he's not advertising it as a Rolex in any way, he just put the design on it that I asked for. I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think he's any sort of fraud since he isn't claiming them to be anythign but basses assembled by him that have a Fender logo at the request of the customer that ordered it.

It's hard for me to consider the second example because of the depth of my resentment toward Microsoft. I really don't think I'd be able to give a good answer, it'd be more along the lines of "I don't really give a **** about Microsoft or anything they have to do with".

I'm on the "agree to disagree" side, more than anything, though. I just think he's getting a lot of flack from people who have never tried his instruments. They really are quite good. I think if more people would at least give him/them a chance, they'd be pleasantly surprised.

 

[StrungGutz]

Well, I guess I fall into the immoral boat. If I needed a quality neck to replace the one on a new MIM Lake Placid Blue P-Bass
and could not afford the scratch for a USA Custom, immoral or not, I would order a US Fender spec neck from Mr. Certain (if the price was right) AND have a Fender decal thrown on it...

Where it gets sticky is I know that I would never sell it (if the quality lacked, back it would go) but that cant be said for others, so whatever.

I agree with the other side from a moral standpoint but money talks and when folks see a good deal...

It would be for my personal use and to hell with the rest of the world, as I said, I would not re-sell it...period.
The whole snitch factor bothers me a bit...poor dude was all excited...but it is the Admins job.

All parties should have known that posting pics and giving names would cause a stir. I'm gonna finish my pizza and pluck my REAL Fender.

 

[bongomania]

if you were smart you'd want a good reputation on the best online source for information related to bass equipment... if you really were making quality fender - copies (without the logos/headstocks) this website would probably provide you with a ton of business. nothing advertises better than a happy customer.

He's already burnt that bridge, and is proud of it.

AllParts bound and block Jazz necks are pretty sweet after getting a working over.

"known TB entities" don't play bass; they own basses and they post.

i relic things that are damaged in shipment. if you really play, a bass tends to to relic itself. so who buys relic basses anyway?

Yes, I do get defensive (as well offensive) when the unqualified or under-qualified attempt to rip apart my product without ever seeing one, but you're not buying my personality, you're (not) buying my bass. If you haven't played one of my basses, you are not qualified to comment on my basses, period.

i made it clear in other posts i don't even want you guys to buy a bass.

look, please, DO NOT buy one of my basses. you can't afford one now. used to you could. i can't make enough basses. so instead of trying to manage a huge under-priced backlog, i just say no. so i don't care whether you buy one of my basses or not. frankly, i'd rather you not.

That is my opinion, respectfully advanced towards your a hole.

now, i don't do bogus Fender decals anymore.

whatever you do, please don't buy one of my basses. they really suck. i'm sure i can't make it good enough for your high level of playing that you do.

I say "60's reissue" because that's what they look like, old Fenders.

i would bet my basses out play most of the basses you all own, and i would also bet i out play most of you. but that's the problem with "gear heads": they're more concerned about equipment than the actual music.

read very carefully: PLEASE DO NOT BUY A BASS FROM ME. I DO NOT NEED YOUR BUSINESS, NOR DO I WANT IT.

(taken from a variety of threads, not all together in one post)

 

[rustynuts]

As far as the first example goes, if I ordered a watch custom made from him, and I specifically requested a Rolex logo, then yes, I would expect a Rolex logo on it.....

No disrespect, but you really have no grasp on the concept of intellectual property or trademark laws. No matter what the reasoning behind it being done, it is illegal. Period.

 

[superfunk47]

No disrespect, but you really have no grasp on the concept of intellectual property or trademark laws. No matter what the reasoning behind it being done, it is illegal. Period.

My argument may not make it sound like I do because it's a lot more my opinion than facts, but I have taken a few business classes. I'm no expert, but I know what's going on.

I just don't personally agree with the "stomp on the little guy to make the big corporation a few extra bucks" aspect of copyrights. Defending personal designs is one thing, hoarding the market of a generic design is a totally different thing. I see this as approaching that kind of situation, because I personally see the Fender headstock design as approaching (read: APPROACHING) generic status. But again, that's just my opinion.

EDIT: None taken. Impossible to tell much about people over the web, so it's cool.

 

[GregC]

He's already burnt that bridge, and is proud of it.

(taken from a variety of threads, not all together in one post)

Wow. I'd seen some of these, but not most. :scowl:

 

[rustynuts]

I just don't personally agree with the "stomp on the little guy to make the big corporation a few extra bucks" aspect of copyrights.

I don't necessarily either, but the law works both ways and would also protect the little guy's great idea from being stolen by big corporations. (As an example, check out some of the millions of dollars eBay has been forced to pay out in infringement lawsuits.)

Suppose we reversed the tables for a moment, and Certainbass actually came out with a product that everyone clamored for, and then Fender released a dead on copy of it? What would you say then?

Fender can't do anything about the body shape, that's already been proven in court. But the logo is theirs and theirs alone.