Bassists who learned without the metronome

[Deleted member 394181]

You may be misunderstanding the use of a metronome

changes in tempo are unavoidable in a live band, to one degree or another
live musicians listen and adjust to the tempo produced

metronome practice is not simply to practice perfect tempo
it's most usefully to practice listening and adjusting

Never used one, so im sure idu.

 

[scrubhelmet]

In short, if you think you don't have to work on your time and other associated skills just because you've been doing it your whole life so far.... even the greats know there's room to improve.

That's why I said I was open to trying out something new. I also checked out the drum tempo program that someone commented.

I don't know why you have to insinuate that we don't think we have to improve. If I did, I wouldn't have started trying to learn jazz just a few months ago since it's so daunting and it's something that makes me feel like a beginner again. It makes me feel I need to study it for the rest of my life. But I didn't regret it since I've learned really tons just from a short amount of time. I forgot who commented it in this thread but there's someone who said, "...in jazz, the bass is the timekeeper," and I'm aware of that because it's written in Ed Friedland's Building Walking Bass Lines which I just read.

 

[JazznFunk]

That's why I said I was open to trying out something new. I also checked out the drum tempo program that someone commented.

I don't know why you have to insinuate that we don't think we have to improve. If I did, I wouldn't have started trying to learn jazz just a few months ago since it's so daunting and it's something that makes me feel like a beginner again. It makes me feel I need to study it for the rest of my life. But I didn't regret it since I've learned really tons just from a short amount of time. I forgot who commented it in this thread but there's someone who said, "...in jazz, the bass is the timekeeper," and I'm aware of that because it's written in Ed Friedland's Building Walking Bass Lines which I just read.

Right. My response was to the collective discussion about 'thinking one's time is good enough because I've never had to think about it', and was more directed at the collective dialogue between you and @TomWinter, specifically where Tom said, and you quoted in response:

"I listened to so much music my whole life. I dont worry about timing, i know its fine."

I should have ensured that Tom's quote was included in my reply, and it wasn't. It would have added more context. Listening to a ton of music and thinking that means your time is solid isn't a thing. Executing it in the moment IS the thing. I've been in tons of situations where I thought I had my stuff together after playing along with a recording of a tune we're doing, and have gotten surprised when the actual execution of the tune in terms of tempo and feel are executed differently by the players on the bandstand. Having your time, etc together means your ears and hands respond to those things in the moment, musically. Just having a great library of music at home as a reference doesn't build good time, but it's essential for getting many different perspectives on how time and feel vary from player to player for sure. It's why my CD and vinyl collection is easily mid-to-high triple digits in number. Always be absorbing musical information.

It was I who said that 'in Jazz, the bass is the timekeeper.'

And YES - kudos to you for wanting to try something new, and encouraging others to do the same. That's the mindset we should all have, as well as the mindset that our time is always a work in progress.

 

[wompwomp]

If this was a carpentry forum, I'd wince at anyone posting that they always just eyeball things and never use rulers or squares to measure stuff. Would not want the coffee table made in that shop.

personally I prefer a storey pole. then you can deal with the material itself directly as a reference and still be square without relying on clunky fractions etc.

***

growing up I could easily hear whether a record used a click or not and I was totally prejudiced against rigid time. I really just preferred to hear 'living' time. i still feel the click tends to sterilize music but my bias is not so strong against the idea these days and there are bands that have figured out how to groove a click. but most just don't imho.

that said I do enjoy playing to a click, it's easy and fun and things like landing triplets off the beat on a slow click can be a very good exercise. but for me it's more like checking in. I've never used it for recording, it's unlikely that I could be persuaded to.

check out Beautiful Metronome on YT they have some amazingly musical clicks that are a blast to play to.

 

[Deleted member 394181]

I like The Beatles too, btw. Idk how much/if they used one all the time. Its not Jazz, i know, but its great music.

 

[scrubhelmet]

I should have ensured that Tom's quote was included in my reply, and it wasn't.

Thanks for clearing things out.

I've been in tons of situations where I thought I had my stuff together after playing along with a recording of a tune we're doing, and have gotten surprised when the actual execution of the tune in terms of tempo and feel are executed differently by the players on the bandstand.

Me too! It happened during my first performance in our jazz club. I did a solo and I thought I did fine, but when I heard the recording, I wasn't satisfied. My guitarist said I just played the melody in a faster tempo, but that wasn't my intention.

Now I realize something else. Sometimes, there are jazz bass solos where there is no comping in the background. I don't know if the absence of comping was intentional, but you can really lose the time if you don't regularly practice with a metronome.

And YES - kudos to you for wanting to try something new, and encouraging others to do the same.

Not to be proud, but I hear a lot of comments from non-jazz musicians that I'm the best bassist in town. However, I always would say that I don't feel that way because of my respect for a local jazz bassist here. I understand that you need to have a more advanced skill set in order to be someone who's regularly called for jazz gigs.

And I usually read or hear from jazz bassists, aside from your Ray Brown quote, that they don't feel they played satisfactory, or that there is more to learn, and other things that make them strive to be better.

 

[Ritter667]

Jeff Berlin would disapprove your endeavours.

 

[scrubhelmet]

Jeff Berlin would disapprove your endeavours.

I honestly don't know him, but a quick Google search brought me to this:

 

[Krisfield]

Learning and practicing improvisation, the metronome is indispensable.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

When I was trying to learn how to play the bass, I just watched the covers and live videos of a few bassists (Buddy Zabala, Flea, Tony Kanal, Stuart Zender) and their bands and learn their songs. I also tried to learn other songs as soon as people knew I was playing bass and hire me up for their band. I also have a bit of music theory knowledge when I was learning the guitar, and I think it helped with improvisation and composing. Recently I'm also trying to learn jazz bass and have read books such as Ed Friedland's Building Walking Bass Lines.

However, the idea of practicing with a metronome only came up recently to me because I'd read it in forums such as this. So in a way I don't know how to utilize it. But I think it didn't affect my bass playing negatively. I know that bassists in general are in demand so I won't count this as an evidence of me being able to play properly; but on the other hand, there are several instances when I'd play with a drummer and lock in with them, and both of us would want to play with each other again due to the mutually good experience.

Anyway, so are there other bassists here who had the same lack of knowledge about the metronome as me? And if you went from not using the metronome to using it, what are the improvements that you felt?

EDIT: In lieu of the metronome, I think that I just have a feel for rhythm and groove, to the point that it makes me tap my foot or dance while playing.

I never learned how to play with a metronome, I found that being able to adapt to tempo changes much more valuable in ensemble work. It happens more than you think.

 

[Ritter667]

I honestly don't know him, but a quick Google search brought me to this:

He's an odd fellow for sure.

Kind of an old grumpy reactionary conservative man when it comes to music education, but then for some strange reason also an avid loudly opponent against the use of metronomes, which seems somewhat contradictional.

Which was my point.

That said it might be the only point I do agree with him on, though perhaps for slightly different reasons.

Frankly it just seems like he is oblivious to the concept of objectivity, and for him the only way to learn how to play music is the way he learned it.

Now he is a non less than astonishing bass player, one of the absolute very best, got to give him that.

But so is Victor Wooten, who's opinion on music education is about the polar opposite.

 

[ProbablyTooLoud]

Yeah Berlin's etudes are great but his metronome pov makes no sense, nor does ripping Vic and Bailey ad nauseum. Again though, great etudes and insight on little phrases he posts for study.

 

[Ritter667]

He's an odd fellow for sure.

Kind of an old grumpy reactionary conservative man when it comes to music education, but then for some strange reason also an avid loudly opponent against the use of metronomes, which seems somewhat contradictional.

Which was my point.

That said it might be the only point I do agree with him on, though perhaps for slightly different reasons.

Frankly it just seems like he is oblivious to the concept of objectivity, and for him the only way to learn how to play music is the way he learned it.

Now he is a non less than astonishing bass player, one of the absolute very best, got to give him that.

But so is Victor Wooten, who's opinion on music education is about the polar opposite.

To elaborate on my own opinion on the use of metronome, though it isn't a very strong opinion of mine.

Metronome absolutely has it's place, but in general as far as I am concerned rhythm shouldn't be mechanically strict timely punctual, it should be organic, dynamic and flowing, and practicing with a real living organic drummer will almost always be the superior way to develop your sense of pulse and rhythm.

Rhythm in most cases should not be controlled, but it still should be intentional, and to the latter point, in lack of better alternative, a metronome might have it's place.

Also for certain music actual a strictly timed punctual rhythm is crucial, so in those instances practicing with metronome would be beneficial as well.

I guess my point is that practicing with metronome is a useful practice, but you shouldn't always practice with a metronome, and at any chance you get you should practice with a real drummer.

And in most instances a natural organic, dynamic sense of rhythm and pulse is superior to a strict mechanical sense of rhythm.

I suppose one man's sloppy, is another's natural, dynamic and organic, and one man's tight, is another's robotic, stiff and stilted/uncanny.

As said though some specific styles of music does call for a "robotic" rhythm.

 

[Groove Doctor]

You may be misunderstanding the use of a metronome

changes in tempo are unavoidable in a live band, to one degree or another
live musicians listen and adjust to the tempo produced

metronome practice is not simply to practice perfect tempo
it's most usefully to practice listening and adjusting

+1

there are bands that have figured out how to groove a click. but most just don't imho

Very true.

To elaborate on my own opinion on the use of metronome, though it isn't a very strong opinion of mine.

Metronome absolutely has it's place, but in general as far as I am concerned rhythm shouldn't be mechanically strict timely punctual, it should be organic, dynamic and flowing, and practicing with a real living organic drummer will almost always be the superior way to develop your sense of pulse and rhythm.

Rhythm in most cases should not be controlled, but it still should be intentional, and to the latter point, in lack of better alternative, a metronome might have it's place.

Also for certain music actual a strictly timed punctual rhythm is crucial, so in those instances practicing with metronome would be beneficial as well.

I guess my point is that practicing with metronome is a useful practice, but you shouldn't always practice with a metronome, and at any chance you get you should practice with a real drummer.

And in most instances a natural organic, dynamic sense of rhythm and pulse is superior to a strict mechanical sense of rhythm.

I suppose one man's sloppy, is another's natural, dynamic and organic, and one man's tight, is another's robotic, stiff and stilted/uncanny.

As said though some specific styles of music does call for a "robotic" rhythm.

Timing should be intentional… nicely put.

Trying to lock in with a sloppy drummer feels like purgatory for me.

 

[turf3]

Practicing with a metronome is a valuable practice tool. As is practicing without.

It's not recommended to use a metronome in performance.

At rehearsals it can be useful to make blindingly obvious how much the group's rushing.

You know, ever since the metronome was invented (what, 1850 or so?) it has been a prime tool/assist in practicing music. It's kind of weird to me to see people blowing it off as "oh, I don't need it". Well, if your time is so good, put yourself to the test. I bet you'll find you can't stay with the click.

Just as football players spend a lot of time doing things that don't occur on the field (ever see a bunch of truck tires laid out on the ground during a game?), musicians do all kinds of things in practice that they don't do in performance, because to learn complex skills it's almost essential to break them down and practice individual elements. Really, guys. Practice is DIFFERENT from performance!

The note above about taking a passage at tempo-di-learno and getting it clean played VERY SLOWLY, then ratcheting up the nome till you can hit (and exceed) performance speed is a superb example of this. I have played with I don't know how many people - mostly guitarists, but sometimes drummers) who have their lick, and they insist on playing it, and they can't quite play it at tempo. So instead of either going home and working it with the metronome till they can nail it up to tempo, or reducing the number of notes, they insist on playing EVERY SINGLE NOTE and everything drags down, or the beat's totally lost. Don't be that guy. Practice slow to play fast, and play things in correct time.

 

[JazznFunk]

Rhythm in most cases should not be controlled, but it still should be intentional, and to the latter point, in lack of better alternative, a metronome might have it's place.

Also for certain music actual a strictly timed punctual rhythm is crucial, so in those instances practicing with metronome would be beneficial as well.

I guess my point is that practicing with metronome is a useful practice, but you shouldn't always practice with a metronome, and at any chance you get you should practice with a real drummer.

Playing with other people is important so that you understand how different people feel and interpret time. That said, it is NOT advantageous to play with anyone (drummers or otherwise) who have bad time. It's better to practice with a metronome or drum machine that keeps accurate time so you don't develop bad habits trying to cover for other peoples' bad time.

Good time is good time. FEEL within that time is another story. You can have great time and it gives you the ability to accurately play behind, on, or ahead of the beat. Sometimes people use those concepts as excuses for covering up BAD TIME. Bad time plus trying to play around the beat to be 'creative' is a recipe for sounding dreadfully amateur.

Ensembles should, when working on material, be ready and able to play to a metronome as a reference when/if there are certain passages or songs in general where things aren't coming together well. The metronome doesn't lie.

 

[Ritter667]

...trying to play around the beat to be 'creative' is a recipe for sounding dreadfully amateur.

Disregarding context, and in your opinion...

Personally I've found that some of the most beautiful tracks are those that fells like they are constantly just about to fall apart, but for some strange reason, that almost seems like pure magic, manage to stick together, despite.

As I also stated in the part of my post you chose not to include in your quote:

I suppose one man's sloppy, is another's natural, dynamic and organic, and one man's tight, is another's robotic, stiff and stilted/uncanny.

...The metronome doesn't lie.

No, it juts dictates the strictly mechanical concept of time.

This equates to saying a watch don't lie.

Which is just silly, and could even be debated.

 

[wompwomp]

mechanical metronomes will indeed drift, i got my kiddo a wittner for the more musical knock and tbh it sucks at keeping time. the digital Boss I replaced it with is way more useable but sounds ghastly.

watches don't really know what time it is btw, they don't tell time at all afaik it's more like they express time.

 

[hbarcat]

As part of the rhythm section in close partnership with the drummer, a highly accurate and reliable sense of timing is essential to a bass player.

You can achieve that skill with or without a metronome. Don't let anyone tell you that only one of those options is the right one.

That said, each option has its pros and cons. My advice would be to not overthink it. Just make a decision whether you want to practice with or without a metronome and then have at it.

 

[Gopherbassist]

I honestly don't know him, but a quick Google search brought me to this:

Don't worry abouy Jeff Berlin, he doesn't matter. TalkBass is the only place I've heard of him, and what I've read of his opinions on music has amounted mostly to some profoundly stupid mental vomit and needless judgement of other people doing things differently than he does them. Feel free to ignore his existence.