Been playing for 12 years - should I quit?

[ComeHomeShane]

Everyone has limitations. Learn to embrace them and work within them. I can’t play very fast. These days my answer is not to worry about my top speed and simply play the speeds I can. I figure my top speed is 40 MPH whatever that means. It’s fast enough to make music and get somewhere even if some parts remain out of reach.

Personally, I have found that emulating others and playing their music, especially that of world class bands like Rush, to be ultimately unfulfilling. You never really get there. And it’s easy to forget those bands find often it difficult to play their own music and sound like themselves. Studio cuts are the very best takes captured in a very controlled situation and then often mixed and mastered by excellent sound engineers. They are an illusion.

I’ve pivoted to devoting my time to originals where I can play like me and sound like me. It just washes away these concerns and puts me in a different and more creative space where I can do no wrong. I merely focus on the challenge of doing my best to make the best music I can. That is, after all, what our musical heroes did isn’t it?

Word.

 

[Topkat13]

If you want to.

 

[brisonic]

Caution - long post. As the thread title suggests, I have been playing the bass for over 12 years now. During this time, I've always considered it my main instrument and thus "identified as" a bassist. But I have never been happy with my tone - and I've lurked this place along with others to know that tone is in the fingers. And after over a decade of technique (along with gear) experimentation, I think I've reached the conclusion that my fingers just won't do it. So would it be better to cut my losses and call it quits?

I enjoy and have learned songs in a variety of genres. That said, rock and metal are an important part of my musical enjoyment. It was bassists like Steve Harris and Geddy Lee who inspired me to pick up bass in the first place and to practice. These players have bright, aggressive tones that cut through a mix and are clear even when playing quickly. As for me, I seem to have an unusually dull tone (and lower volume), which I initially attributed to beginner gear. But after a few years, when I started to hear other bassists play in person through the same gear, I heard a huge difference; me playing through a bass with the volume and tone knobs wide open sounds like pretty much anyone else playing with the tone almost all the way closed. Hell, I've even seen non-bassists / beginner bassists get sounds out of the instrument that are more pleasing to me than my own playing.

So I knew the problem was me. Determined to fix the problem that is me, I have tried varying my technique in pretty much every conceivable way. This included, but was not limited to: playing closer to the neck, playing closer to the bridge, playing more at an angle into the instrument, playing more at an angle across the instrument, playing hard, playing lightly, playing with fingers more bent, playing with fingers more straight, playing more relaxed, playing more stiff, playing with different fingers, and even playing left handed. I had a bassist (who produced a clearer tone than me) try to explain to me what he was doing. I had him explain right hand fingerstyle to me as if to a beginner. I also looked closely at what his hand was doing. Still no luck. People often like to say that if X player were to play through a different instrument or rig, they would still sound like X player. Well, turns out I have a signature tone, and I don't like it.

Over the years, I haven't just been practicing, of course. I played for my church for most of that time (until a few years ago), about every other week, often to fairly large audiences. I've also posted a video here or there on social media and shared with friends. I have always gotten compliments on my playing, from people with both musical and non-musical backgrounds (though never on my tone). I don't think the dull tone ever really impeded me on the context of church music, and some other genres. But I've always wanted to record my own rock and metal music. And over the years, I have always threw away any attempts I made in disgust after playing them back. If the type of song requires fast playing, it's mud.

Finally looking to remove my fingers from the equation, I started to try playing with a pick starting a month or two ago. I liked the sound I could get. Though I have felt like I had become a beginner again. Passages that would be easy for me fingerstyle are a struggle. The instrument no longer feels like an extension of me, but a bear I'm wrestling. But I've never been the type to be put off by practice, so this was a mountain I would have been willing to set out to conquer. However, more worryingly, still more recently (last couple weeks) I have been beginning to feel pain in my left arm. I am not a big person, and what I found that was causing it was trying to play with a proper thumb-on-the-back-of-the-neck left hand around frets 1-5. In order to position the bass to be comfortable for my picking hand, the neck is a bit further from me. I can alleviate the pain by playing with the thumb over the neck, like a guitarist would, but then I lose speed. I've been looking at how other pick bassists hold their bassist but haven't been able to settle into anything truly comfortable.

I don't know, man. I could try continuing to play with a pick, but get a short scale instrument (I have found the difference to be quite notable for me as a small person). Or some other solution that I'm not thinking of. But I'm getting tired of throwing money at my problems in vain. But I'm reluctant to quit because it just seems like a waste having spent years becoming proficient. I can always make music in other ways - I played piano for over a decade starting from when I was a kid, I've dabbled in guitar (but not super enjoyed it), and my drum rudiments are becoming...okay. But I like bass best.

Anyways, I'm just looking for honest advice and opinions from other musicians (and I fully admit that the vent was a little bit satisfying), if anybody here would be so inclined.

Try a lesson or two with an experienced player, to ensure you're not missing something obvious to us but not to you? Harris' clickety-clack tone is indeed desirable on faster/harder music. Presuming you've tried other basses and experimented with eq and pickup selection options? Hard to imagine you're unable to get some brightness unless you have 10-year-old strings or otherwise very unlucky with regard to assembly of your bass.

 

[BlueTalon]

When I looked at the other guy's hand when he played, I noticed that his fingertip would actually bend backwards slightly at the fingertip joint from the string pressure, which may lead to more springyness. I found that my fingers are physically incapable of doing that. Even if I grab my fingertip with the other hand and pull backwards, my fingertip cannot bend backwards at the last joint. And with regards to forward bend during the stroke, that doesn't seem to happen for me, even if I tell my finger to be totally limp. At the end of the rest stroke, when my fingertip is against the next string, my middle joint is belt while my fingertip joint is straight. Must be a joints thing.

I can totally relate to this. Most people's thumb joints can bend back at least a little bit, and most videos I see of people using slap technique with their thumbs shows their thumb joints with a bit of reverse curve as they're playing. My thumb is totally straight, and I can't get it to bend backward even a little bit. As it happens, I mostly suck at slap, so my thumb is my convenient excuse.

My fingertips also don't bend back much (maybe a degree or two). But it doesn't matter much. Even without bending them, there is still a range of attack angles you can use on your strings.

I used to teach people how to shoot in the Marine Corps. Some people had physical limitations, namely, an inability to hold the weapon completely steady. Teaching those people how to shoot was tricky, but it could be done. The biggest hurdle to overcome was getting them to believe they could shoot. The trick was getting them to "accept their wobble area." They knew they were going to wobble, so they had to learn to work within their own limitations. Once they got past their own mental obstacle, learning how to shoot became much more doable. Now, they're obviously never going to shoot as well as someone who can hold a gun with a completely steady hand, but that doesn't mean they can't shoot, or even shoot well. But the first step is always believing they can do it while simultaneously accepting their own limitations.

Oh, and by the way, there's nothing wrong with getting a short scale bass. I recommend getting an inexpensive one to try (maybe rent?), and if you decide it can help you, invest in a good one.

 

[MisterStompy]

I don't think there's a way for me to edit my first post, so I'll have to make my update in this thread. I think, based on many of the responses I am getting, that there is a general perception that I am "amateurish" at bass. I can understand that, since I tried to keep the background information short, and I don't think the responses were malicious in nature.

I'm the type of person who believes in doing something right, or not doing it at all. With musical things, I find that when I commit to something, I commit hard. I got a book on bass playing before I even got a bass itself, to make sure I started on the right foot and developed good habits. When I got my bass, I frequently looked at my hands, making sure my left hand was playing thumb-behind-the-neck, one finger per fret (though I later abandoned this for 1-2-4 in some places), and that my right was using a movable thumb anchor, plucking through the string and resting on the next higher string. I practiced with a metronome, and played boring exercises a lot. Something that I get the impression most other people aren't willing to actually do. My response to this day to people asking me how I'm such a good bassist is that "I was willing to do the tedious stuff."

Once I got some pop and rock songs under my fingers, I didn't stop practicing, because I liked progressive rock and knew I'd need serious chops to play that. I adopted three finger plucking, and grinded away at that with a metronome, gradually increasing the speed. Got a 6 string bass. I played through the fingering patterns in John Myung's progressive bass concepts videos starting at 3:41 of this video, ending at 26:08, all of them, with a metronome, every single day. That lasted for months, if I recall, until I felt I had gained what I could from them. At around the peak of my motivation, I was able to play the fairly technical Dream Theater songs I liked, such as "Constant Motion", "Panic Attack", and "The Dark Eternal Night" at full speed reasonably cleanly.

So contemporary Christian music was mainly an exercise in restraint for me. Even so, getting compliments from members of the audience after a service was not a common thing, and I'd get those as well as requests for me to give lessons / workshops.

I've fallen off in the last couple years, and went back to two finger plucking as well, ditched the 6 string a while back, but got interested in Vulfpeck - I didn't have much issue learning songs such as "Dean Town" or "Disco Ulysses", so I still have some degree of technicality.

All this to say I have put in some serious hours and work over the last 12 years. I recognize that I still would have a long musical journey ahead of me and much to learn, but I have plenty to be proud of already, which is what is making this situation so hard. I found that tone wasn't something that I simply "fix" by grinding for hours at with a metronome. But to quit would be to invalidate all of my work and accomplishments (sunk cost, amirite?). On the other hand, becoming a beginner again with a pick is extra discouraging because of the serious chops I had developed fingerstyle (but I will grind at it until I get good at it again, provided that I can do so without injuring myself)

 

[bbh]

How about a bright sounding string like Rotosound ‘swing bass’ and a pick. Maybe some Dunlop choices

 

[Seth Shonefeld]

Full disclosure: i haven't read your whole thread. I think that possibly what you are describing is what we refer to as a plateau. You have to find a new approach. Whether that involves a new teacher, instrument, technique, etc. You have to be patient and understand that playing the bass can be a lifelong learning process.

 

[GTHintz]

I understand what you're feeling. I've played for years now and sometimes I feel like I used to hit things better and harder than I do now. I work constantly and I think that may another cause. That pain in your thumb is usually from gripping too tight and being so rigid with your fret hand. You need to loosen up when you play and make sure your bass is set up so you have nice comfortable string action. When you pluck strings don't worry about where your hand is and don't think about how you're hitting them. Geddy basically spent 45 years figuring out that your fingers can do it all. Watch him play. His hand is all over the place. He uses 2 fingers sometimes but mostly just uses his index like a pick and digs in pretty hard pulling up as well as strumming down with his nail. Ged is probably my biggest influence and I still really love all their music. As far as strings I'd get the most lively punchy strings you can find and set up your bass so it's comfortable and that will help you get the most out of your playing. Honestly, strings and pickup hight are important. My favorite strings for getting growly thick Geddy like tones have been either Rotosound swing bass or Ken Smith Rockmaster strings. I don't have my pickups too close because it kinda makes a mud sound. I pluck a few strings and adjust with the tone knob about half or 75% on and fiddle until it sounds big but tight and punchy. I do it for the back first and then the front and then blend it wide open in the back and sprinkle the front in until it starts to fatten up the tone a little. Then I keep my tone knob anywhere from just cracked open to about halfway because it seems like it sounds richest that way. My eq is usually low mid and high mid heavy and sometimes I have a compressor engaged and sometimes not. I get more attack without it. Also live it's nice to have an in ear monitor so you can maintain some sense of crisp tone because after hours of everyone cranked and shredding it all gets sounding mushy after a while. Aside from if you have a hearing issue which I highly recommend getting looked at if you suspect anything of the sort, I just hope that any of what I typed or any of the advice from everyone else helps you! Keep playing and try to go have fun and don't take it so seriously. Geddy doesn't even take it that seriously and he's about the most badass player on the planet. Btw this pic is where my eq is on my preamp. Not sure what equipment you use but this should give you an idea of what tone I'm after. Lots of mid range punch and enough everything else just to make it sound bigger. Sounds badass through headphones and it goes into my bass rig and I don't really have to add much to replicate the headphones sound with my bass rig tone.

 

[Seth Shonefeld]

I didn't read that part about pain. I remember many great bassists including Bowie's bass player whose name escapes me saying how important it is to turn the volume up high and play softly. This is for me the prime ingredient in keeping the pain from getting bad. Incidentally, this also helps improve tone very quickly because the playing becomes much more sensitive as the bass player works harder to avoid playing too loudly.

 

[GTHintz]

I didn't read that part about pain. I remember many great bassists including Bowie's bass player whose name escapes me saying how important it is to turn the volume up high and play softly. This is for me the prime ingredient in keeping the pain from getting bad.

Volume is a big one and the in ear monitors are nice for keeping your hearing intact and keeping it crisp sounding. The science behind it is that your inner ears get more inflammation and the crisp and clear sounds are perceived less and less as the loudness continues. Ear fatigue is definitely something to watch.

 

[jamro217]

Sorry this has gotten you to the point of considering quitting. I'd examine your fingering hand as well as your picking hand. If you're pressing down on top of the frets instead of in front of them you could be choking the notes (like an unwanted muting technique). Other than that, how we hear our own playing as opposed to others may be more critical. Without an in depth view of you playing and demonstrating exactly what it is about your tone that is making you miserable, there isn't much help we can offer.

 

[40Hz]

Definitely sounds like you could benefit by taking lessons from a human instructor. I get the feeling you’re almost entirely self-taught or book/video taught. And while it’s admirable you did that (if you did that) it tends to be limiting to your development as a musician.

tl:dr - If possible, start taking lessons.

 

[lfmn16]

Definitely sounds like you could benefit by taking lessons from a human instructor. I get the feeling you’re almost entirely self-taught or book/video taught. And while it’s admirable you did that (if you did that) it tends to be limiting to your development as a musician.

tl:dr - If possible, start taking lessons.

+1

The problem with being self taught is that you don’t know what you don’t know. What looks right might be very wrong.

 

[MisterStompy]

Re: Getting lessons: I'll consider it in the right situation, but I've had some pretty poor (non bass related) experiences with lessons. I even have a permanent injury to show for it, but that's a story for another day.

Re: Pain: The pain is in my wrist and elbow, not my thumb (I was just trying to explain that it only occurred when I played with a pick, and only when I put my thumb on the back of the neck when playing frets around 1-5 and went away when I put my thumb over the top of the neck).

Thanks for the replies. Thinking about it, I guess I was a bit down on myself over the weekend. I realized that throwing in the towel doesn't have to be all-or-nothing. I'll probably just step down my expectations of myself, and the scope of my time spent and what I'm doing. Get rid of some gear I'm not using. I can't have everything, skill-wise or sound-wise, especially since I haven't been super committed to the bass like I used to. And milk what I can do well for what it's worth. For all the frustration I've experienced hearing myself try to get an aggressive tone, I've also got a lot of joy hearing my P-bass-with-flats.

 

[Snarf]

Caution - long post. As the thread title suggests, I have been playing the bass for over 12 years now. During this time, I've always considered it my main instrument and thus "identified as" a bassist. But I have never been happy with my tone - and I've lurked this place along with others to know that tone is in the fingers. And after over a decade of technique (along with gear) experimentation, I think I've reached the conclusion that my fingers just won't do it. So would it be better to cut my losses and call it quits?

I enjoy and have learned songs in a variety of genres. That said, rock and metal are an important part of my musical enjoyment. It was bassists like Steve Harris and Geddy Lee who inspired me to pick up bass in the first place and to practice. These players have bright, aggressive tones that cut through a mix and are clear even when playing quickly. As for me, I seem to have an unusually dull tone (and lower volume), which I initially attributed to beginner gear. But after a few years, when I started to hear other bassists play in person through the same gear, I heard a huge difference; me playing through a bass with the volume and tone knobs wide open sounds like pretty much anyone else playing with the tone almost all the way closed. Hell, I've even seen non-bassists / beginner bassists get sounds out of the instrument that are more pleasing to me than my own playing.

So I knew the problem was me. Determined to fix the problem that is me, I have tried varying my technique in pretty much every conceivable way. This included, but was not limited to: playing closer to the neck, playing closer to the bridge, playing more at an angle into the instrument, playing more at an angle across the instrument, playing hard, playing lightly, playing with fingers more bent, playing with fingers more straight, playing more relaxed, playing more stiff, playing with different fingers, and even playing left handed. I had a bassist (who produced a clearer tone than me) try to explain to me what he was doing. I had him explain right hand fingerstyle to me as if to a beginner. I also looked closely at what his hand was doing. Still no luck. People often like to say that if X player were to play through a different instrument or rig, they would still sound like X player. Well, turns out I have a signature tone, and I don't like it.

Over the years, I haven't just been practicing, of course. I played for my church for most of that time (until a few years ago), about every other week, often to fairly large audiences. I've also posted a video here or there on social media and shared with friends. I have always gotten compliments on my playing, from people with both musical and non-musical backgrounds (though never on my tone). I don't think the dull tone ever really impeded me on the context of church music, and some other genres. But I've always wanted to record my own rock and metal music. And over the years, I have always threw away any attempts I made in disgust after playing them back. If the type of song requires fast playing, it's mud.

Finally looking to remove my fingers from the equation, I started to try playing with a pick starting a month or two ago. I liked the sound I could get. Though I have felt like I had become a beginner again. Passages that would be easy for me fingerstyle are a struggle. The instrument no longer feels like an extension of me, but a bear I'm wrestling. But I've never been the type to be put off by practice, so this was a mountain I would have been willing to set out to conquer. However, more worryingly, still more recently (last couple weeks) I have been beginning to feel pain in my left arm. I am not a big person, and what I found that was causing it was trying to play with a proper thumb-on-the-back-of-the-neck left hand around frets 1-5. In order to position the bass to be comfortable for my picking hand, the neck is a bit further from me. I can alleviate the pain by playing with the thumb over the neck, like a guitarist would, but then I lose speed. I've been looking at how other pick bassists hold their bassist but haven't been able to settle into anything truly comfortable.

I don't know, man. I could try continuing to play with a pick, but get a short scale instrument (I have found the difference to be quite notable for me as a small person). Or some other solution that I'm not thinking of. But I'm getting tired of throwing money at my problems in vain. But I'm reluctant to quit because it just seems like a waste having spent years becoming proficient. I can always make music in other ways - I played piano for over a decade starting from when I was a kid, I've dabbled in guitar (but not super enjoyed it), and my drum rudiments are becoming...okay. But I like bass best.

Anyways, I'm just looking for honest advice and opinions from other musicians (and I fully admit that the vent was a little bit satisfying), if anybody here would be so inclined.

Without video, it's impossible to offer advice. I will say this though: There are a lot of points in everyone's development as a musician where they reach a plateau, and either they feel the need to improve and/or add to what they do, or stay satisfied with their current level. You are the former. So am I. The time it takes to reach that next plateau can vary greatly. In my case, I've been a professional bagpipe player for 20 years. Last night, I reached a new plateau while practicing. I shifted the angle of both hands JUST SLIGHTLY, and my whole world changed. My top hand previously felt tight, some doublings sounded/felt forced for many years. One slight change opened up my whole technique and instantaneously brought me to the next level. Things like that can happen on any instrument.

I would suggest posting a video (maybe you did, but damned if I'm reading through the whole thread; Talkbass is entirely too active a forum now to do that), and/or taking a few lessons with someone IN PERSON.

 

[MisterStompy]

I originally intended for this to be for musical advice rather than technical advice, but since lots of people have been asking for a video I made a quickie.



EDIT: And for those who care what I sound like:



This is a recording I dug up that I had made just for the memes. It's a pretty repetitive bassline, not very fast. I went from a fender american P bass into a sansamp to a usb interface. No post processing, besides a little compression. This is with roundwounds with the tone and volume wide open.

 

[BlueTalon]

Re: Getting lessons: I'll consider it in the right situation, but I've had some pretty poor (non bass related) experiences with lessons. I even have a permanent injury to show for it, but that's a story for another day.

Re: Pain: The pain is in my wrist and elbow, not my thumb (I was just trying to explain that it only occurred when I played with a pick, and only when I put my thumb on the back of the neck when playing frets around 1-5 and went away when I put my thumb over the top of the neck).

Thanks for the replies. Thinking about it, I guess I was a bit down on myself over the weekend. I realized that throwing in the towel doesn't have to be all-or-nothing. I'll probably just step down my expectations of myself, and the scope of my time spent and what I'm doing. Get rid of some gear I'm not using. I can't have everything, skill-wise or sound-wise, especially since I haven't been super committed to the bass like I used to. And milk what I can do well for what it's worth. For all the frustration I've experienced hearing myself try to get an aggressive tone, I've also got a lot of joy hearing my P-bass-with-flats.

I'll say this again in case you missed it the first time. There's nothing wrong with playing a short scale bass. I recommend trying one out if you can, perhaps rent one for a month or so. If you decide you like it, you can then invest in a quality short scale bass. Who knows, that might open up both your playing and your tone.

 

[SteveCS]

I originally intended for this to be for musical advice rather than technical advice, but since lots of people have been asking for a video I made a quickie.

It's difficult to tell as the recording level is waaaay too low against quite a high noise floor. But it looks odd that your hand flicks when playing with your middle finger - the difference in tone and attack between the two fingers is quite noticeable.
On the other hand, your timing seems pretty rock solid. However, that flicking hand will prevent you scaling your technique to more challenging tempi, IMHO.

 

[MisterStompy]

It's difficult to tell as the recording level is waaaay too low against quite a high noise floor. But it looks odd that your hand flicks when playing with your middle finger - the difference in tone and attack between the two fingers is quite noticeable.
On the other hand, your timing seems pretty rock solid. However, that flicking hand will prevent you scaling your technique to more challenging tempi, IMHO.

Haha yeah, I thought people just wanted to see, so I recorded without sound really. I'm not raising my hand on purpose when I play with the middle finger; I think it's because my middle finger is longer than the index, so when I rest it on the string after a stroke it pushes my hand up.

I added a sound clip to that post jusut now.

 

[BlueTalon]

That extra mechanical movement is indicative of your hand kind of fighting itself to get the plucking you want. It is unnecessary and fatiguing over time. If you try tilting your hand a little bit so that the thumb side of your hand is closer to the bass than the pinky side, then your index and middle fingers should hit the strings with the same amount of finger extension, allowing you to play with two fingers with minimal hand movement.

That will result in a different part of your fingertips interacting with the strings, and that might feel a little weird, but it's something you can get used to, and I believe the end result will be beneficial for you.