Bergantino AE212; Part 2!!

[Eublet]

I've been following this thread closely. I love my Epifani 310NYCs, they are heavy so I was looking for a significantly more portable cab & would love a 212.
The more I read however the more I gather it would be a mild improvement for lifting. If I could buy a cab now from scratch it would be the AE212 but the difference isn't enough for me go through the trading process for a few pounds when I already like my cabs sound.

I totally get what you are saying. What I am saying is show me another 212 on the market that has the same performance (meaning SPL and Frequency response) of the AE212 that isn't either bigger or heavier, if not both. I just don't think one exists. There are others that are roughly equivalent. Physics is physics though. To make this cab any lighter, you'd have to begin gutting the internal bracing and such which would take away from the sound and performance.

I definitely appreciate that folks say their 210 is lighter and easier to move. They also wouldn't stand up against a good 212 in terms of SPL. You want a bigger sound, you need a bigger cabinet. It'll weigh more. Vic qualified all his points about liking the AE210 that made sense. Lighter, easier for him to move in and out of his vehicle, taller profile when using two of them, etc. Those are all rational reasons for wanting the AE210 or AE112 (even in pairs) over the AE212.

The comments I'm making are more about folks saying the AE212 is too heavy in general for a 212. That's why I suggest someone show me another 212 that does what this one will do that is smaller and lighter. I dare you. I know that the Tecamp S212 (one example among several I can think of) is smaller and lighter, but it also doesn't have the fullness of tone that the AE212 has. So that goes back to my other statement. It's all about tradeoffs, and I don't know of a 212 builder out there who has managed those tradeoffs better than Jim Bergantino did with the AE212. As many have said, it's a fairly small, lightweight 212 that still seems to compete with full size 410's. That's darn impressive!

 

[Chef]

I don't think a Fearful 1212/6/1 weighs much, if any, less than this, when made out of 1/2" ply.
When I talked to Don at LDS about building one for me, he quoted me 70lbs out of 3/4" ply.

 

[Tunaman]

I totally get what you are saying. What I am saying is show me another 212 on the market that has the same performance

Agree 100%, it would be my cab if I needed a new one... its just not THAT much more portable than what I have now.

 

[rodneyat]

I've been following this thread closely. I love my Epifani 310NYCs, they are heavy so I was looking for a significantly more portable cab & would love a 212.
The more I read however the more I gather it would be a mild improvement for lifting. If I could buy a cab now from scratch it would be the AE212 but the difference isn't enough for me go through the trading process for a few pounds when I already like my cabs sound.

If you are really happy with the Epi NYC's. It truly may be a toss up. The Berg is a good bit smaller and lighter. The width is probably a wash but I believe the Berg is significantly shorter and not as deep. And 15-20lbs lighter. I've owned the Epi cabs and personally prefer the sound of the Berg. But, that could just be difference of chocolate and vanilla. One is not really better than the other..just different.

Maybe you can get out and try an AE212 somewhere.

 

[Eublet]

Agree 100%, it would be my cab if I needed a new one... its just not THAT much more portable than what I have now.

From memory, the AE212 would sound pretty different from those UL310's which I recall being very wide on the bottom, somewhat tame through the mids, with an airy and pingy top. So you might have more to gain than something physical.

 

[Tunaman]

I like the epifani NYC vs the UL series straight up... If I could get the Epifani NYC tone from a portable package, that would be awesome. I'd imagine the Berg AE212 would be more my sound than the Epifani UL.

 

[Saluki]

Just to be clear I wasn't complaining. Easier for me to schelp then the AE410, I was just explaining how I do it and I would have been bummed if it didn't fit in the trunk, because then I would have needed a new car for me AE212

 

[grovest]

Wow, people not liking the size and weight of the AE212. IME, you can't get smaller and lighter for a 212 without sacrificing a lot of frequency response. This cab is more evenly voiced and powerful than many larger and heavier 212's. The semi-vertical arrangement has a purpose, and it's very effective. The only thing I was skeptical of at first was the rear porting, just because I've had issues with it in the past even though everyone will tell you it doesn't really matter. On this cab, I will agree that it's a non-issue.

Grills are heavy. Putting a heavy-duty grill on the cab would only make it heavier. As with all designs, every feature has a pro and a con. IMHO, the design of this cab is about perfect given that statement.

I understand the cab is the result of careful, deliberate decision making. I don't think my post is really even a "complaint". I paid my own hard cash (after a lovely phone conversation with Mr. B) to buy one new and now I feel maybe another model might have been a better choice for me. (e.g. a smaller cab that would suffice most of the time that I could double up occasionally) I'd have never concluded that without living with the AE212 for a while, so I have no "hard feelings". And I may not change my gear soon anyway because the setup does indeed sound amazing.

 

[hennessybass]

Can't imagine one handing this cab... way too heavy for that. Two hand... nice carry for me, although I would have preferred the handles just a touch lower on the cab, since 'straight arm' carry can result in the cab banging your knees again. However, at 55 pounds, this is not really 'carry friendly' anyway, and it is just a dream on the kart-a-bag... thin and narrow enough to sit nicely on the Kart-a-bag over long distances, and the carry from the cart to the stage is trivial.

Just catching up here,,, sorry I'm a little late.

This is really funny. The Bass Emporium in Austin gets berg prototype cabs as testers and such before they go into final production. I first saw one there several months before they came out... they still have it - it's a model with no serial #.

Chuck from Bass Emporium told me he made a recommendation to Jim B that the handles should move up a bit on the cab... Chuck was thinking so you don't have to bend down as much when you pick it up.

I disagreed. My though was, that's great for picking it up, but sucks once you have to carry it... especially if it's upstairs or something. Too much weight down low -- hitting your knees as KJung says. I wouldn't mind having a recessed handle on the top of the cab for doing the one hand thing... but I'm 6'2", 200lbs.

I one hand it sometimes, but the weight is off center and it's hard to manage. Can't go very far with it. I think it's a pretty easy cab to move and have no problems with it. I bet I could one hand it if the handles were centered on the cab.

Fun bit of AE212 trivia... the original prototype cab that Jim designed had a tilt-back foot on the bottom of the cab. Think about the Genz-Benz shuttle cabs that have the same little foot. Of course this didn't work on the berg with it being too tall. It would tip right over if you breathed on it funny.

 

[Vic]

Wow, people not liking the size and weight of the AE212. IME, you can't get smaller and lighter for a 212 without sacrificing a lot of frequency response.

Nobody is complaining about it in the context of 212 cabs... just commenting on schleppability in absolute terms.

That said, there are only two other 212 cabs I know of that are smaller, and to my ears they do sound great... different, but great. Still, the Berg is my current fave.

FWIW, anyway.

 

[Vic]

From memory, the AE212 would sound pretty different from those UL310's which I recall being very wide on the bottom, somewhat tame through the mids, with an airy and pingy top. So you might have more to gain than something physical.

To be fair, he said "NYC", which I think are the older non-neo ones which I believe sound different, but I'll leave it at that, because I've spent very little time with one.

That said, you're right about the current UL310's, except the AE212 is actually wider on the bottom, but the UL310 has a bump around 300Hz, then kind of a scoop until the high mids and highs, so yeah, kinda' scooped in general. I JUST A/B'd the AE212 against my Series 1 UL310 (my fave of the two UL310's by far) and the Berg definitely had more low end extension... the thing is, it was really even and transparent. It wasn't big and boomy... just "present". It's a good thing.

 

[Vic]

Fun bit of AE212 trivia... the original prototype cab that Jim designed had a tilt-back foot on the bottom of the cab. Think about the Genz-Benz shuttle cabs that have the same little foot. Of course this didn't work on the berg with it being too tall. It would tip right over if you breathed on it funny.

What woulda' made a LOT more sense to me would be tilt-back legs on the side, or one tilt back in the middle of the back.

 

[Eublet]

Nobody is complaining about it in the context of 212 cabs... just commenting on schleppability in absolute terms.

Even this I can understand. If schlep is the thing most concerned with, then definetly a 210 or 112 is better. But those won't give you anywhere near a 212-type performance. But on the other hand, I do think that most folks probably don't need the kind of output a good 212 can put out. I really don't need it myself, at least from the standpoint of being able to hear myself. I like the feel a 212 gives.

To me, the attraction to the AE212 comes from a different perspective. I've always like 410's in general because of the huge headroom and punchy nature. It was if not downright impossible finding that kind of performance in anything else. The AE212, by comparison to many traditional 410's, is much smaller, yet still has much of the same output and punchy characteristic. I felt the same way about my Genz Neox 212. The AE212 takes it a bit further for me. It's a bit more punchy, a little more extended in the lows, yet has a form factor and weight that is much less than a traditional 410. So for me, the schlep comparison comes from that angle, rather than a 112 or 210.

 

[Eublet]

I believe the Berg is significantly shorter and not as deep. And 15-20lbs lighter.

Just a quick comment on this, but IMHO that 10-15 pound difference is extremely noticable when it occurs in the plus or minus 60 lb range. The difference between 55 lbs and 70 lbs is really huge IMO. I can easily pickup a 55 lb cabinet and put in on a raised stage, or into the back of my car. Yeah, it has some weight, but the lift is doable. In a 70 lb cabinet, it becomes more of a dreaded thing to have to lift it.

 

[Vic]

...To me, the attraction to the AE212 comes from a different perspective. I've always like 410's...

Right... me too. In my case, I solved the problem by simply carrying two 210 cabs, which gets back to Vision's original question to me regarding schleppability. On the surface, it might seem odd that it's "easier" to move two 210's around than a single 212, but when you factor in geometry and the per unit weight, at least in my case, it literally is easier to move two 210's than a single 212.

Thing is, at least for me, I don't wanna' make too much of this... as I mentioned before, it wouldn't be a deal killer for a cab I liked as much as the AE212... just a negative point is all.

 

[Munjibunga]

Just a quick comment on this, but IMHO that 10-15 pound difference is extremely noticable when it occurs in the plus or minus 60 lb range. The difference between 55 lbs and 70 lbs is really huge IMO. I can easily pickup a 55 lb cabinet and put in on a raised stage, or into the back of my car. Yeah, it has some weight, but the lift is doable. In a 70 lb cabinet, it becomes more of a dreaded thing to have to lift it.

LOL. My Quattro is my "light weight" 410 at 80 pounds. I was really getting tired of lifting that 98-pound D-410XLT into my car. Lifting the AE212 is kid stuff.

 

[Eublet]

Right... me too. In my case, I solved the problem by simply carrying two 210 cabs, which gets back to Vision's original question to me regarding schleppability. On the surface, it might seem odd that it's "easier" to move two 210's around than a single 212, but when you factor in geometry and the per unit weight, at least in my case, it literally is easier to move two 210's than a single 212.

Thing is, at least for me, I don't wanna' make too much of this... as I mentioned before, it wouldn't be a deal killer for a cab I liked as much as the AE212... just a negative point is all.

+1. Dual 210's are easy if you use a good cart. I use a cart even for the smallest of schlepps. I used to move a Neox 212 and 112 for most all my gigs, just because I liked the tall profile. On a cart it was a piece of cake.

Sent from my iPhone. Please pardon terse messages. All spelling errors are the sole property of Apple, Inc.

 

[Eublet]

LOL. My Quattro is my "light weight" 410 at 80 pounds. I was really getting tired of lifting that 98-pound D-410XLT into my car. Lifting the AE212 is kid stuff.

+1. I briefly went back to a heavy cab before this in the Berg IP310. It was 86 pounds and there where times I thought it was going to kill my back. Never have I felt that way about something in the 55 pound range. Kid stuff indeed.

Sent from my iPhone. Please pardon terse messages. All spelling errors are the sole property of Apple, Inc.

 

[rodneyat]

I understand the cab is the result of careful, deliberate decision making. I don't think my post is really even a "complaint". I paid my own hard cash (after a lovely phone conversation with Mr. B) to buy one new and now I feel maybe another model might have been a better choice for me. (e.g. a smaller cab that would suffice most of the time that I could double up occasionally) I'd have never concluded that without living with the AE212 for a while, so I have no "hard feelings". And I may not change my gear soon anyway because the setup does indeed sound amazing.

There are plenty of people who will take that AE212 off your hands! LOL

Seriously, that could be an option and probably will demand top dollar. Then you can pickup a couple of 112s or the 210s as you expressed earlier. Personally, if "schlep factor" is at the top of the list. And you do like the overall sound of the 210. The 112 is probably a good choice. To me, it overall sounds closer to the 210 than it does the 212. And is super small and light. It is what I use for all my small gigs along with an F1 head. I had previously been using a GB Shuttle 3 10-t combo and the AE112 with F1 totally blows it away.

 

[Chef]

Uh...yeah.
Hit me if you want to flip it.

There are plenty of people who will take that AE212 off your hands! LOL