Concerning the use of 1-2-3-4 technique on higher regions of the fingerboard, we are saying the same thing. Where to transition from 1-2-4 will is player-dependent: for me (small hands) it is between 5th and 7th "frets".
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Concerning the use of 1-2-3-4 technique on higher regions of the fingerboard, we are saying the same thing. Where to transition from 1-2-4 will is player-dependent: for me (small hands) it is between 5th and 7th "frets".
You keep going on about the same thing and trying too hard to convince others. I didn't advocate not looking. Just don't rely on looking alone. I said I didn't care as long as the music that comes out is good. Not looking is a good practice tool but when performing it is a different thing. Yes most electric bass players (including fretless players) are looking when performing. I never said I disagree. I even said the lines are there for a reason and can help you with your with orientation on the board. Anything that helps you play in tune is good. This topic is a bit worn out....
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Yeh, and Tip 86 is "Look at your right hand" (LoL).
But, seriously, when Gary (Tip 85) says "Look at the neck" he does not at all advocate to watch your left hand while playing. What he discusses in Tip 85 is that by examining the neck (while not playing) and understanding the symmetry of of how the notes are laid out to build a mental map (visualization) of the fingerboard. This tip has nothing to do whatsoever with how to play in-tune.
Further,
- in Tip 2 "Eye contact" Gary insists on the importance of maintaining eye contact with the band mates (not possible if one is strictly reliant on watching the left hand),
- in Tip 21 "Fretless reading" Gary writes "if you don't feel you've developed that perfect intonation muscle memory we all strive for (I know I'm not there yet) (NB: Gary W speaking here!), then a quick glance at the neck won't harm" (yes he does advocate a quick glance, and I guess noone would advocate no to do this),
- in Tip 40 "Fretless practice" Gary advocates practicing with a drone to work on intonation,
- in Tip 41 "Fretless pivot" Gary writes "If you don't happen to hit that spot with deadly accuracy all the time (believe me, it'll happen) (NB: Gary W speaking here!), then you'll need to coax the note in the right pitch without sliding. This is where the "roll" comes in", and then explains how to do it,
- in Tip 72 "Muscle memory", Gary states: "Learning to play in tunre on fretless is accomplished in two steps: hand-eye coordination and then eventually muscle memory",
- in Tip 87 "Ear training exercise" Gary writes "I've always maintianed that your ear is your most valuable asset".
All these recommendations by Gary W clearly indicate that for him all the playing on bass (and in particular the intonation on fretless) has to be driven by the ear and muscle memory, and that vision has an auxiliary (but useful) role.
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If you look at both of the videos of Willis that I have linked here, he spends at least 90% of the time looking at the board, at least. That isn't an auxiliary role for any name fretless player. Lagrene the same, over 90% of the time, looking at the board.
Show me one name fretless player, who does not look at the board. It's that easy...
If they can't see for themselves, no one is going to convince them. It's probably the blindfold...
“...looking alone..” ha!!!
This has totally inspired me to do an experiment.
I am going to record myself playing something
Normally (looking and listening)
Blindfolded (listening only)
And with earplugs (looking alone) lol, maybe I can channel my inner Beethoven. Hahaha.
This should end this debate once and for all!!!
Neither did I, but choose any one of those guys in the clips and they are looking at their boards over 90% of the time. They rely on visualization heavily.
It won’t end lol
Nonetheless, it’s a good thing to do. A better approach? Put sheet music in front of you, then play through it without looking at anything other than the sheet music. Practice doing that for a few days. Then for weeks, then for months.
Incidentally, I think there’s been a component missing from this discussion. And that is your posture.... how you hold the bass! It you’re a rock gunslinger guy, holding the bass down below your crotch the way Jimmy Page held his guitar, then there’s no way you’ll be able to play fretless without looking at the neck. Personally, I hold my fretless almost as if it were upright. The top of the headstock is around the same height off the floor as is the top of my forehead. One would consider it perhaps “classical guitar posture”.
Kinda like (inserts gratuitous image of well-known fretless bassist not looking at the neck while playing)
Odd (not really) that you opted to ignore the full content and context of that tip. He’s not saying you should be gazing at the neck while performing! Here’s the actual thought:
It’s about learning harmony. I really don’t see how that translates to staring at nothing but the fingerboard for 45 minutes during a performance. And you KNOW pianists and woodwind players are not staring at their instruments as they play.
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Is a piano a bass? And woodwind? As I've said, check out the top fretless players and they all look at the board for over 90% of the time. But you must know better.
Getting out much coyote?
LOL! Once again you have completely missed the point. The role of good posture in achieving anything beyond rudimentary skill with any instrument is indisputable. Of course it is not a panacea, but it is a pre-requisite of sustainable progress if done properly and can be highly destructive or limiting if not.
Even a blind man, with or without a mirror, could see that the specific postures of the fretless EB and DB (or 'cello) are different, but it doesnt take too many brain cells to see that conceptually the same ideas can be applied: The hand, thumb and fingers form a consistent moveable unit that is positioned on the instrument by the arm. Fingertip placement is determined almost exclusively by the current position of the hand and the fingers relative to each other, not individually. Put the hand in position and plant your fingers. It's that simple. And time-proven.
Where is anyone saying that looking at the fingerboard is verboten? Maintaining a visual check - peripheral or direct - is fine for general orientation and as an ongoing background integrity check, but in a well-developed general technique it will always be relegated to 3rd place behind by a reliable left-hand and a strong ear. The only reason it looks like a significant aspect in video examples is because the other aspects are difficult to see unless you know what you are looking for.
I know that Willis states, in his book of tips, that he himself is striving to NOT have to look at the fingerboard. See tip #21: “that perfect intonation muscle memory we all strive for”.
When I see a guy like Willis state that this is what he’s striving for, it seems a waste of time IMO to strive to look at the fingerboard - as you clearly are doing.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m not evangelizing to you. If what you’re doing works for you, that’s fine by me. But virtually all professional instruction systems on all instruments seek to eliminate reliance on looking at the instrument, so you can look at the a) sheet music, b) conductor, c) bandmates, and d) audience. And in this modern video era, often e) cameras.
A driving analogy: I’d far rather have a driver who is looking at the road ahead... and not at the gas, brake, clutch pedals and steering wheel. A sports analogy: a pitcher looks at the catcher, and not at his fingers on the ball. A bowler looks at the pins, and not at his grip on the ball or his footwork.
Let's look at this from a different angle: show us a clip where those great players are not listening to their playing and their band mates' playing 100% of the time!
Sure, they are watching their neck 90% of the time, but they play in tune 99.9% of the time, because their ears are wide open 100% of the time, and because they have trained the muscle memory of their fingers to go to the right place. They do make use their eyes of course (and, again, no one here says one should not!) but if they need to look elsewhere, they can still do the job well. That is what Gary Willis explains in the book you (mis)quoted a few posts earlier.
I’m thinking of a system. Reference points on the back of the neck, to help facilitate knowing where to place one’s hand to play in certain positions.
Ideally it would be a series of very shallow indents that the thumb would just fall into, thereby correctly positioning your hand on the fingerboard. The first problem is that it would vary by player due to hand size, so it could not be mass-produced. The second is that as a player, you would not want to build a reliance on “counting indents” as you move up and down the neck. I’m sure there would be other problems that I’ve not yet pondered.
I mentioned earlier that I’ve been practicing playing entirely in three positions (5th, 9th, 12th). I’m developing a good muscle memory for those positions; I often practice just arpeggiating a chord or two in one of those positions, then moving to one of the other positions and arpeggiating the same chord. Sooo... based on this thread and on my above idea, I put a tiny piece of blue ez-peel masking tape at my thumb location for 1st position playing. I’ll practice similar things with that for a few weeks, then report back what I’m experiencing.
Ideally it would be a series of very shallow indents that the thumb would just fall into, thereby correctly positioning your hand on the fingerboard. The first problem is that it would vary by player due to hand size, so it could not be mass-produced. The second is that as a player, you would not want to build a reliance on “counting indents” as you move up and down the neck. I’m sure there would be other problems that I’ve not yet pondered.
I mentioned earlier that I’ve been practicing playing entirely in three positions (5th, 9th, 12th). I’m developing a good muscle memory for those positions; I often practice just arpeggiating a chord or two in one of those positions, then moving to one of the other positions and arpeggiating the same chord. Sooo... based on this thread and on my above idea, I put a tiny piece of blue ez-peel masking tape at my thumb location for 1st position playing. I’ll practice similar things with that for a few weeks, then report back what I’m experiencing.
I've pointed this out before, in a lot of the lines those players execute, there is absolutely no time for pitch correction. None. So how are they pulling that off? They are watching their hands time for the positioning and shifting.
I find the idea of pitch correction over a certain tempo is magical thinking. You do not have time for that. Which is something you should know...
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Do you play Continuum by Jaco by any chance? Just the head up to 1.33, I've always found that tricky. I haven't played it for a while but if you would like to compare techniques, we can upload our individual takes. I could do with something to work on. I can't say fairer than that can I.
I have commented earlier (post #198) on how "on-the-fly" pitch correction takes place. But you don't have to believe me, rather believe Gary Willis (or any violonist, cellist, etc., because the principle is the same):
- in Tip 41 "Fretless pivot" Gary writes "If you don't happen to hit that spot with deadly accuracy all the time (believe me, it'll happen) (NB: Gary W speaking here!), then you'll need to coax the note in the right pitch without sliding. This is where the "roll" comes in", and then explains how to do it,
- in Tip 72 "Muscle memory", Gary states: "Learning to play in tune on fretless is accomplished in two steps: hand-eye coordination (when you're beginning playing the instrument) and then eventually muscle memory (when you have achieved a higher level of mastering the instrument)".
With respect to watching the hands for intonation, the fact is that, unless you are way off-tune, there is no visually perceptible difference between the finger position being in-tune, and audibly out-of-tune.
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