Big E Speakers Part 4 - Quadraphenia

[MarkA]

I have actually been running the minimega again with the bodai 38 as of lately(really like muscular it sounds)..medium sized bar last night with gain around 4 the volume knob between 5 and 6 and that was plenty but my cab is a ~6ohm cab(I'm told) ...the figures that Mike posts re the 8 inch driver are that he can coax 460 vd out of each one...so the 28 should be close to hanging with fearless 212s and big twins in theory...i have played my cab(38) in a large party room with lh1000 volume as high as 7 and at that point I was really just trying to make sure I wasn't physically vibrating the room too much...i have also played it in a very small bar where I put the pa mixer right on top of my head, had one cbr10 speaker one acoustic guitar one singer and then my cab...had a great night where we fell into some of the prettiest versions of our songs.....cab felt huge to carry in there but it sits way more petite
My previous cabs were 4×10 and 1×15 gk mbe series and the 38 is much more capable than that stack but less visually imposing

Thanks for that. Would you say that the 38 does the quiet stuff well, then, too?

Based on what you say, it's possible that I was underestimating the output capabilities of the 8"-based cabs. Re. Kirk's question, I know that the Berg cabs are capable and highly regarded, but I don't how they compare, output-wise, to a "super" twelve based on a Kappalite or similar woofer (some of that will be down to the cab, of course, and not just the woofer). Having some uncertainty re. both the MAS 28 and the Bergs in that regard, I thought it best to err on the conservative side (and to ask Mike). Mike did say that the 28 was "closer to the 112" in output than to the 110 -- how much closer, I don't know.

For what it's worth, here is (some of) what it says about the 8" drivers on the MAS site:

...So -- we revisited the 8" driver design. Again working with Eminence we came up with an astounding little 8" driver. A driver at home in a bass cab, PA top, or home hifi.

Some specs
fs (resonant frequency of the driver--an indication of the low frequency limit) 31hz. This is lower than any 10", 12", or 15" driver used for bass. The lowest I've seen is 37hz. (3012LF)

Xmax (linear excursion) this is a great indicator of how much air a speaker can move. The Xmax of our 8 is 12mm. The "super" 12's and 15's like the Eminence 3012lf and 3015lf have xmax's between 9.1 and 9.6mms.

When you combine the excursion x the cone area you get what is called the VD, or the amount of air moved. For bass players this is the best figure to anticipate the actual volume of a speaker. The Vd of this driver is 227 cc's. With the MVW design we can double this figure---we are getting all of the rear wave of the speaker combining with the front wave. So---the effective Vd of the MAS18 is around 460 cc's. This compares favorably with the best 12" or 210 cabs.

Even with a "super 12" or 210 cab -3db response in the low end is typically above 50hz. The -3db response of the MAS18 is 35hz...
​

If the 28 is indeed within spitting distance, for loudness, of my MAS 112, that makes it tempting -- for output vs. size, among other things. Vd figures seem to suggest that it would be, though I wonder how much voicing or other factors would impact the apparent/absolute loudness on a gig.

 

[Amajew]

If the 28 is indeed within spitting distance, for loudness, of my MAS 112, that makes it tempting -- for output vs. size, among other things. Vd figures seem to suggest that it would be, though I wonder how much voicing or other factors would impact the apparent/absolute loudness on a gig.

Imo what is crazy about the mas cabs is to me they sound totally different than any other cab I’ve used. I’m still trying to tweak the EQ in a band setting to where I’m happy with the cab. Thing is. Do these cabs need the player to be 20+ feet away to start feeling the vortex and punch? I don’t know what I may be doing wrong but I’m not feeling much of a punch out of the Bodai 112 when 5-10 feet in front of it or to the side of it.

 

[Kirk Bryant]

Id frikin love to hit a SoBay gtg I'd probably see a bunch of old friends. I can't believe that Bodai is still available. Thought it would be snatched up pronto. But I understand, 1K is a lot to plunk down sight unseen/heard. It takes a leap of faith to trust but I've bought some spendy gear from the advice of people here whose ears I trust. And been generally very happy with the results. That includes two Genz amps and all my 5 Bergs, the Genz 6 & 12 (Mark I do run the SM12 with 3-4 cabs sometimes).
So, JPMcGuire, I see you have the 45 on a berg cab, which one are you pairing it with? And what are the 45s cababilitys?

 

[JPMcGuire]

I am using the 45 seperately. The berg is a hs410. I pair either with a Mesa D800 which works fantastic with either. The 45 is much more refined and articulate than the berg. The low of the 45 is big and smooth sounding. Surprising amount of volume for the 45.

Id frikin love to hit a SoBay gtg I'd probably see a bunch of old friends. I can't believe that Bodai is still available. Thought it would be snatched up pronto. But I understand, 1K is a lot to plunk down sight unseen/heard. It takes a leap of faith to trust but I've bought some spendy gear from the advice of people here whose ears I trust. And been generally very happy with the results. That includes two Genz amps and all my 5 Bergs, the Genz 6 & 12 (Mark I do run the SM12 with 3-4 cabs sometimes).
So, JPMcGuire, I see you have the 45 on a berg cab, which one are you pairing it with? And what are the 45s cababilitys?

 

[spiritbass]

Imo what is crazy about the mas cabs is to me they sound totally different than any other cab I’ve used. I’m still trying to tweak the EQ in a band setting to where I’m happy with the cab. Thing is. Do these cabs need the player to be 20+ feet away to start feeling the vortex and punch? I don’t know what I may be doing wrong but I’m not feeling much of a punch out of the Bodai 112 when 5-10 feet in front of it or to the side of it.

No punch? What are you driving it with?

 

[Amajew]

No punch? What are you driving it with?

A Mesa D800. I did ask Mike about different amps and he mentioned he feels there are better options. I know tons of people rave about the D800 but I don't know if it's for me or not..

I will be auditioning a DG 900 tomorrow so I'll see if that amp works better for my tastes vs the Mesa. I prefer staying lightweight with the class D offerings but.....

I am also interested in the possibility of a tube amp in the likes of a Mesa Prodigy or a Traynor YBA200. An Ampeg SVT would be in consideration but screw that 80 lb carry.

I have done the pre/power amp route before and I'm wondering if anyone has experience with a tube pre such as a Ampeg SVP Pro or an Aguilar DB659 or something similar. I see people digging the Crest Pro lite series power amps as far as powering the cab is concerned. My main goal is an amp that weighs less than the cabinet.

Ideas and comments welcome!!!

 

[3rdcurve]

A Mesa D800. I did ask Mike about different amps and he mentioned he feels there are better options. I know tons of people rave about the D800 but I don't know if it's for me or not..

I will be auditioning a DG 900 tomorrow so I'll see if that amp works better for my tastes vs the Mesa. I prefer staying lightweight with the class D offerings but.....

I am also interested in the possibility of a tube amp in the likes of a Mesa Prodigy or a Traynor YBA200. An Ampeg SVT would be in consideration but screw that 80 lb carry.

I have done the pre/power amp route before and I'm wondering if anyone has experience with a tube pre such as a Ampeg SVP Pro or an Aguilar DB659 or something similar. I see people digging the Crest Pro lite series power amps as far as powering the cab is concerned. My main goal is an amp that weighs less than the cabinet.

Ideas and comments welcome!!!

I have noticed that each MAS has its own voice and meshes differently with different amps. The 12 seems to be more inherently warm and round (like a traditional cab) and I found that a slightly more HI-FI amp works great with it like GENZ or EBS. The 10s are more neutral and seemed lean in the lows compared to the 12 with the same amps. The Mesa was a perfect match for them, as well as my old favorite the Streamliner. I have a D800+ which has a very powerful eq, so dialing in some extra punch is fairly easy. Don't be afraid to dial in some extra low mids around 150 HZ and play with the voicing knob to find your tone. If that doesn't do it there have been some smoking deals on the Genzler MG800 in the classifieds. If i remeber correctly, you are using a compressor as well. Try dialing back the amount of compression you are using. I had noticed I had lost alot of my initial note impact using my empress. When I cut back from 10/1 to 4/1 there was a huge difference, and even more going down to 2/1, and all the dynamics were back. Being fairly new to the compression game, I am wondering if a limiter style would be more to my liking than a full out compressor. At least a dual band. In any case, having too much compression will act like a boxer hitting you with 24oz gloves opposed to 10oz.

 

[kesslari]

A Mesa D800. I did ask Mike about different amps and he mentioned he feels there are better options. I know tons of people rave about the D800 but I don't know if it's for me or not..

I will be auditioning a DG 900 tomorrow so I'll see if that amp works better for my tastes vs the Mesa. I prefer staying lightweight with the class D offerings but.....

I am also interested in the possibility of a tube amp in the likes of a Mesa Prodigy or a Traynor YBA200. An Ampeg SVT would be in consideration but screw that 80 lb carry.

I have done the pre/power amp route before and I'm wondering if anyone has experience with a tube pre such as a Ampeg SVP Pro or an Aguilar DB659 or something similar. I see people digging the Crest Pro lite series power amps as far as powering the cab is concerned. My main goal is an amp that weighs less than the cabinet.

Ideas and comments welcome!!!

I'm happily using either a Genz Benz Shuttle 9.0 (great) or a combination of the Sonic Farm 2di4 DI (as a preamp) and RAD 1000 watt ICE power amp (incredibly great).

 

[JPMcGuire]

The secret to using a D800 is to combine with a great clean tube preamp. Either a nobel or jule monique works great

 

[J.Wolf]

with all due respect to the D800 and those who love it (and those on TB who've helped design it), if you have to use a tube pre with the D800, that costs more than the D800, in order to make it shine, that is highly unfortunate.

Are you running the output of the tube pre into the input of the mesa? or the FX return?

Wouldnt you be just as well off (or considerably better off) with one of the tube pre's mentioned and a very high power micro power amp, like the RAD, M700, Minnie, Sumo etc?

I checked out an 800+ briefly, but my BB800 just smoked it. The Mesa was way sexier, but I think I remember saying to the guy in the store "its a good thing this amp has so many knobs, cuz you're gonna need em".

 

[thumbs&fingers]

The one negative about MAS cabs is that they will reveal flaws in your technique, quality of sound of your instrument/ strings/pickups, and amp sound/settings. It’s almost mind numbing if you are a perfectionist for your sound, but worth it once you adjust because your technique, setup, and general sound parameters WILL improve. I’m not the only one who has experienced it, I spent many hours testing many amps with mike when he developing his cabs over the years and it was astonishing hearing the difference back to back with amps amongst different cabs. Really makes you rethink all your previous equipment choices and how you thought they effected your sound, which can be initially shocking.

 

[JPMcGuire]

I tried all the other high potential power amp options. Minnie, m700, glock etc.

I found that for less than $600 the D800 is the best option. Less expensive, more flexibility and makes a good practice amp with aux in, headphones etc which the power amps don’t. Also can tweak the mids too. I found sounds equally as good as the m700 etc for gigging purposes but even smaller. I go from pre to direct front input on the mesa. Plus 5 year warentee. Can’t beat this combo imo. 80 percent of my gigs are di only. So the nobel and Monique are my most used. I love the D800 for practice. Flexibility.

with all due respect to the D800 and those who love it (and those on TB who've helped design it), if you have to use a tube pre with the D800, that costs more than the D800, in order to make it shine, that is highly unfortunate.

Are you running the output of the tube pre into the input of the mesa? or the FX return?

Wouldnt you be just as well off (or considerably better off) with one of the tube pre's mentioned and a very high power micro power amp, like the RAD, M700, Minnie, Sumo etc?

I checked out an 800+ briefly, but my BB800 just smoked it. The Mesa was way sexier, but I think I remember saying to the guy in the store "its a good thing this amp has so many knobs, cuz you're gonna need em".

 

[J.Wolf]

I tried all the other high potential power amp options. Minnie, m700, glock etc.

I found that for less than $600 the D800 is the best option. Less expensive, more flexibility and makes a good practice amp with aux in, headphones etc which the power amps don’t. Also can tweak the mids too. I found sounds equally as good as the m700 etc for gigging purposes but even smaller. I go from pre to direct front input on the mesa. Plus 5 year warentee. Can’t beat this combo imo. 80 percent of my gigs are di only. So the nobel and Monique are my most used. I love the D800 for practice. Flexibility.

I guess between the headphone amp and the midrange control it offers some nice features over a dedicated power amp. I have been using a RAD1000 with my Sonic Farm tube DI (on the level of Monique and Noble) and the raw power really lets the quality of the tube DI shine. When I run it into an FX return of other micro's I'm always less than overwhelmed.

Sounds like you've found what works best for you, which is what its all about!!

 

[kesslari]

I kind of lost track - who here currently has and gigs a Bodai 28?

 

[golfnsubie]

Imo what is crazy about the mas cabs is to me they sound totally different than any other cab I’ve used. I’m still trying to tweak the EQ in a band setting to where I’m happy with the cab. Thing is. Do these cabs need the player to be 20+ feet away to start feeling the vortex and punch? I don’t know what I may be doing wrong but I’m not feeling much of a punch out of the Bodai 112 when 5-10 feet in front of it or to the side of it.

I get what he is saying because I also feel that way sometimes...like as I turn the wattage up it doesn't seem much louder right where I am but it definitely starts to find all the resonant frequencies of the room lol

...and to answer questions regarding quiet smaller shows..it sounds quite beautiful at lower volume gigs because i don't need to have that impactful presence, it just floats in the room..

 

[kesslari]

@golfnsubie I'm curious - one of the things that impresses me most about the Flex210 is how hard it punches - the visceral feeling that the cab provides.
Are you not feeling that from the 38 Special?

 

[golfnsubie]

@golfnsubie I'm curious - one of the things that impresses me most about the Flex210 is how hard it punches - the visceral feeling that the cab provides.
Are you not feeling that from the 38 Special?

To be honest with you I'm not sure...my cab experience is not that vast though...took my 1×15 gk cab to a jam night Tuesday and was surprisingly pleased about just having that direct sound....i have played quite a few places with the 38 already and although I think I like it i cant help but feel like I'm not sure...might just take my gk stack to next bigger bar gig to remind myself what that sounds like...maybe I'm not a vortex guy...or maybe this cabinet isn't working quite how mike designed it to...i have no real MAS baseline to compare it to

 

[J.Wolf]

I don't doubt that the sonic "presentation" of the vortex just isn't everyones bullseye sound/feel. Some people love it for its wideness and richly enveloping sound while others prefer (or are just so used to) the point source sound of conventional cabinets. It took me a minute to adjust to my flex 210; it had tons of volume, but me being so used to how a conventional ported cab sounds, it was a little disorienting at first. Once I acclimated to it, I really dug it, and my bandmates did too as they could hear me better on stage, on gigs with no monitors.

I will say, it is super imperative to find the right voiced amp for your cab, your tastes and your bass. The D800 seems to be on the list of heads that people like with their MAS cabs. So thats probably not the issue, but could be. I was never super bowled over by D800, but thats all personal preference.

 

[kesslari]

Judging from the number of Flex tops in the TB classifieds (including mine) it seems Mike's latest has piqued the interest of a number of us Flex-ers

 

[Amajew]

@golfnsubie I'm curious - one of the things that impresses me most about the Flex210 is how hard it punches - the visceral feeling that the cab provides.
Are you not feeling that from the 38 Special?

When you say it punches and feels visceral, where are you in regards to the cabinet? Does it feel different when you play it by ourself vs a band??

Also, what amp/s gave you paired your MAS to??