Big E speakers: Pt 2

[NorCal Dog]

had my first decent gig last night in a med. sized room @ 200 people. nice elevated stage / good PA support.

ran the 48 with the Fender SuperBassman. ran it horizontal with no tilt ( because of the elevated stage )

tone was phenomenal, kept the stage vol down & let the PA do it's thing. absolutely love the dispersion Mike had a couple of half stacks on stage & i could definitely hear my rig where ever i was on stage.

played a shortscale 4banger with a pick & the fundamentals just popped, the presence & clarity was superb. this cab loves big tube heads, ( also sounds crazy good with my Genz 9.0 & five string )

would love to hear this design run as a PA, as the louder you twist the volume the more that they open up & expand my bass tone, without the excessive sound pressure that is normally associated with high volume & typical cabs.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

Hey---I wanted to thank Nostatic for trying the cab---he's a good guy and articulate as far as his needs.

I've got to say---pardon me for getting philosophical---but as a Buddhist I've learned that no experience is inherently positive or negative. Depends on what you do with it.

When I sent RP the 2x8 with the Faitals I learned a great lesson. That cab wasn't really my favorite but I felt that I had to get one to a get together. With the Faital it doesn't go low or loud. Killin' midrange and it'll do all of the wacky Big E stuff. I always use it with Fdeck. Any 8pr200 NEEDS an Fdeck (or whatever).

So RP wants to crank it to see what it'll do. With 1200 watts with no HPF. People don't realize that a 400 watt amp at pretty close to top volume may show some signs of strain at a decent volume but you won't pop 'em. With a 1200 watt amp at the same perceptible level---a little bigger attack without turning the amp up can ask for 900 watts where the smaller amp will ask for near its clipping peak---maybe 500 watts. They sound close to the same but the 1200 watt amp has just a bit more goose at the same level. So both of the
Faitals got popped. Totally my fault.

This caused me to work with Jerry at Eminence and come out with the highest Xmax and lowest f3 of any commercial 6.5" or 8" speaker. So it was a great experience. As a result I've got an 8" speaker with an xmax of 8.72mm and an fs of 39hz.

I've voiced the BIg E cabs with the voicing I like. Powerful bass, very tight with no overhang or bloat ,great extension, slightly warmer in the upper bass, flat mids, and a singing extended highs. This is a great voicing for many.

But not everybody.. What Nostatic likes is the Baer which does a great thing. Roger is a great guy and he did a very smart thing. He found out that he himself and a lot of others wanted a focused and maybe a bit leaner low end that could handle being goosed. And picking an awesome midrange driver voiced a bit more forward and aggressive without sounding wanky.

This is a portion of the market that I hadn't considered.I play jazz, funk, r&B, fusion, and Brazilian---my sound works great for that (I think). But I'm not a rocker. So now we're looking to come out with a cone midrange speaker without the upper bass warmth and multiple smaller mids with a flat/ aggressive switch.

It will never sound like the Baer---he has a wonderful thing happening---our stuff is soooo different that I don't worry about trying to horn in on his market.

We'll have the RachE 12/ 2x5 / tweeter cab out in April.

The one thing I feel that I need to mention. As I've said before----these cabs are designed for gigging. That's where the real strength of these cabs lies---not in a basement or living room. Also, they sound best horizontal TILTED UP A BIT.

I'm not trying to get a "cab for everybody". I just realize that maybe having 2 styles of voicing would be good.

 

[Vince Klortho]

This caused me to work with Jerry at Eminence and come out with the highest Xmax and lowest f3 of any commercial 6.5" or 8" speaker. So it was a great experience. As a result I've got an 8" speaker with an xmax of 8.72mm and an fs of 39hz.

Your post was very interesting Mike but this paragraph caused me to stop and think a bit : 8.72mm from an 8 ?

The best of 10s are about 5mm so that is, um..., astounding !!!

I really want to hear those !!!

 

[Mike Arnopol]

'tis true!

 

[christw]

Hi guys, I'm still months behind in my personal life thanks to my insane work schedule. However, I did get to run one of the 2x6's as a PA for a jam and it was excellent running through an old Yamaha board with 850 watts of unnecessary power.

I promise I'll get the stuff sent back someday soon Mike. The cab is across town and I don't think FedEx is open on Easter.

 

[nostatic]

Thanks for the kind words Mike. You do great work and these are awesome cabs. As you indicated though, players have different needs, different signal chains, different biases, etc. While I actually play more jazz and funk than rock, I've grown to like a really present mid sound and having any low-mid push is just something that I have a tough time with on-stage. Not sure if it is my gear, my technique, my ears, or the guys/instrumentation I play with (though that varies a lot). Like a lot of guys here I've got a lot of years playing and an idea of a sound I'm going for. And since I play two very different sounding basses (Fodera and Rob Allen - and now have added an upright into the mix), invariably any single cab is going to be a compromise. But we always keep looking for the magic "perfect cab" - which for most doesn't really exist. The Buddhist in me should note that and consider my "attachment" to that and take some cushion time

The BigE sounds exactly like Mike describes. Incredibly well made, and it sounds great - really is just a question of what sound you're going for. There are a couple of great speaker builders out there right now - awesome time to be a gigging bassist.

 

[PDGood]

Not sure if it is my gear, my technique, my ears, or the guys/instrumentation I play with (though that varies a lot).

That's a good point. The factor of who you play with is largely ignored in discussions about the pursuit of sound. I recently took a solo on the same song with two different bands. One band was very laid back and it was easy to get to the front of the mix and that achieved a nice result at a reasonable volume. The other group was more accomplished players but were also busier rhythmically. I was never happy with the resulting balance and it would have been easy to start tweaking settings and debating equipment changes for the future. Instead, I think the next time I'll just ask them to play simpler or use more dynamics and I'm pretty sure the existing tone will be just fine.

 

[spiritbass]

So now we're looking to come out with a cone midrange speaker without the upper bass warmth and multiple smaller mids with a flat/ aggressive switch.

VERY intriguing. Looking forward to the prototype!

 

[Mike Arnopol]

alright---lots of requests----finally a pic of Shriggs 85
He's a photographer so he can post some better pics. Had it up against a very nice .Kappalite 3015lf based cab. Almost kept up with it---as I had expected--but the 15 beat it by a little bit in terms of max volume. Popped in the Fdeck---kept up no sweat.

It's cool with these grills---very heavy duty but they kindof disappear

 

[Mike Arnopol]

ok---I'm buying a camera soon

 

[VegasGutPlucker]

It's cool with these grills---very heavy duty but they kindof disappear

I like them too, though I am considering putting a nice patterned cloth over it.
Inquiring minds want to know: WILL THIS FUX with the VORTEX!?!

Sorry. I made myself laugh.

 

[Jazzdogg]

alright---lots of requests----finally a pic of Shriggs 85
He's a photographer so he can post some better pics. Had it up against a very nice .Kappalite 3015lf based cab. Almost kept up with it---as I had expected--but the 15 beat it by a little bit in terms of max volume. Popped in the Fdeck---kept up no sweat.

It's cool with these grills---very heavy duty but they kindof disappear

Mike, Have you considered adding a HPF to the crossover?

 

[rpsands]

Passive HPFs at speaker level just don't work yet. There's a promising device from Eminence (D-FEND) that may serve this need eventually though!

 

[shrigg]

Passive HPFs at speaker level just don't work yet. There's a promising device from Eminence (D-FEND) that may serve this need eventually though!

Cool technology! But for now I'm glad to use my fdeck hpf v3. It has the added benefit of impedance matching my upright's K&K Bassmax to my Markbass F500's 500k input.
I was amazed at the difference in the upright sound using the fdeck, it went from anemic to ALIVE!

/derial

 

[Mike Arnopol]

I tried the prototype of the Defend---still in the promising stage for me

 

[seamonkey]

The thing about d-fend is a manufacturer could offer a strong warranty of say 5-years on drivers by adding in a d-fend. It'd cost more but it would actually be a good investment for the user.

Imagine a small cab that you plug a big head into and don't have to worry about overpowering the drivers. I'd like that just to grab the number of cabs needed for a gig without worry of blowing any if I pick too small.

A self powered cab, like many new powered PA cabs, would be just as safe with a built in HPF and Limiter like most have anyhow. But bass players like their heads.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

I remember the demo, looks very promising. Is it getting closer to an actual product yet?

 

[Mike Arnopol]

I was reading through another thread and was a bit bummed by some not-so-nice dissing going on.
I apologize for any over exuberance on my part.

Everyone is asking for technical info and measurements. We've finally found that we can get accurate measurements using square wave or pink noise rather than frequency sweeps. It is not uncommon to use pink noise for measuring speakers. Attached is a graph of ---can't remember of it's pink noise or square wave---a very well respected Kappalite 15 based cab and the 85. Frequencies below 150 hz aren't very accurate due to measuring indoors. Measurements were done with time gating. I don't know any speaker manufacturers that use actual measurements for the low end---it's very difficult to do---most use modeling.

The 85 is the blue graph.

We didn't measure the voltage but it was LOUD. (my wife freaked out!) The only reason I mention this is that the measurements reflect output from the front cone and rear wave. As you can see---they're very close---I know the frquency response of the 15 cab and it's VERY flat.

I'll post other measurements soon. I'm pretty ignorant here---Duke had to explain it to me. We did impulse testing of the two speakers also. The bottom-to-top ratio of the 85 was much higher than the 15 as opposed to the center average. What Duke told me was that this meant that given the same perceived volume the wider ratio yielded a more dynamic sound. He was saying that this accounts for the fact that when you hear an acoustic instrument as opposed to a recording at the same perceived volume---the acoustic instrument seems much more dynamic due to this fact. I'm really stupid as far as this stuff but Duke was saying that this might be quantifying what we're experiencing.

As far as the contribution of the rear waveguide---the 85 went way louder than a Kappalite 12" based speaker. It was pretty neck and neck with the Kappalite 15" based speaker. If there was not significant contribution from the waveguide this would be impossible.

The Vd (maximum volume of air moved) of the 85 is only 320 cc's. That is the combination of the published Vd's of 8 Faital 5fe 120's. (the driver being used) Interestingly enough, my Crazy 88 has a Vd of 320 cc's. The 88 won't come close to a Kappalite 12" based cabinet without smacking the voice coil against the back plate. The 85 went much louder than the 12 before showing any stress. The Kappalite 12 has a Vd of 496 cc's. Two Cray 88's won't go as loud as a Kappalite 15 based cab. The Kappalie 3015lf has a vd of 845 cc's. That would make sense as two 88's have a combinedVd of 640 cc's. The 85 went way louder than 2 88's. It was neck-and-neck with the 15. I think the 85 did crap out a tiny bit before the 15. But the 15 sounded pretty farty before the 85. When I put the Fdeck in at the lowest setting the 85 exceeded the 15.

This would be impossible without the rear wave contributing MORE than the front. And the frequency graph shows that the contribution of the rear wave when measured with pink noise or square wave is very flat across the frequency spectrum.

Also--the Kappalite 3015lf has a published sensitivity of 99 db, This is likely a bit optimistic---in a smaller cab let's say 96 db.

The 5FE120 has a published sensitivity of 88 db. Now when you add drivers the sensitivity goes up---but not this much. I had to turn up the volume about 3 notches on the Tecamp to have the 15 at the same volume as the 85. Both speakers are 4 ohms .

ok---these observations may not be considered scientific but I have to say---when a speaker voice coil smacks against the back plate---it is not subject to interpretation---it does or it doesn't. The 85 and 88's both use Faital drivers. Two 88's with a combined VD of twice that of the 85 smack the coils before the 85. There must be something happening here.

And ---there are designs in the works using multiple Faital 3" mid drivers (pretty flat to 15khz and able to cross over quite low) in the works. This would allow us to get a flat or switchable hotter midrange response.

I swear that Tom and Steve of Big E don't sleep much----

 

[rpsands]

88 db, doubled once to two drivers is 91db, doubled twice to four drivers is 94 db, doubled three times to 8 drivers is 97db.

The calculated sensitivity of a 3015LF is 96-97db--I believe Duke's kappalite variant is 97.

So your gain from the waveguide seems to be about zero db (depending on those 3 notches - not sure what that winds up meaning for the chart).

Also, look at that burp in the upper bass -- I am pretty sure you can thank the way the tuning wanders with power and drives the tuning frequency up, exaggerating the upper bass for that.

Side note on the low end: You're going to need to figure out a way to model the low end, since that's how everyone else does it who doesn't measure the lows. Either that or measure the lows.

Edit, to add: What I would recommend is you build a straw man traditional ported box to compare to any of the vortex cabs. Make a vertical 4x5 with the 5Fe20's and measure it against an MA45. That'd give you more of an idea of what the vortex really adds.

 

[Arjank]

Seems pretty flat Mike.
The Thunderchild is more flat for sure, mostly within +/-3dB in the "working range" .
The 85 has a sort of "BBC dip" which probably makes it sounds "kind" to the ear on higher volumes.

Low-end response is indeed hard to capture when measuring. I use MLS to measure my designs, I mostly do from 350hz and up (greatly depends and the mic distance and the room size).
I do bassresponse with simulations and in some case(when it's possible) I do close-micing.