• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Big E speakers: Pt 2

Status
Not open for further replies.
if it's light, it'll show up in automobiles as well. i saw neo showing up there years before it showed up in musical gear.

Yes, the automotive world (particularly electrics and hybrids) and the wind turbine industries are the big players in the neodymium world. Speakers are a relatively small piece of the pie.
 
I used to gig 2 Acme B2's. Great cabs. I just wanted something more volume "bulletproof"...

I haven't played through an Acme cab, but I dug what I heard in KJung's old recordings of them. I remember him comparing them to a couple of other cabs and that I liked the low end of the Acmes the most -- at least what I could hear in the recordings.

I was wondering about the "bulletproofness" (idiot-proofness?) of the Big E cabs. Let's take this totally hypothetical situation :rolleyes:: Say, at some point, you play in the house band for a local jam. Say you bring your rig one night. Say somebody gets up after you and proceeds to crank the LF extend filter and the bass control on your amp (and on their bass, for all you know) and hammer on the B-string. Some cabs will take that abuse (not that it would ever happen while YOU were playing) better than others. The Acme cabs are, reportedly, a little more sensitive to over-excursion than some others because of their tuning and because they actually give you a useable fundamental on a low B. The Big Es also extend low (those I have tried -- though only early versions). Are they similarly sensitive?

I'm considering picking up an HPF (perhaps the fdeck), regardless -- and I'm not afraid to intervene if someone gets stupid with my rig -- but some people are scary with equipment, and a real dummy doesn't need that long to damage something!
 
I don't know if I can answer your question directly, but I can tell you a couple of my experiences.
At the listening party, we were driving the RachE12's with one side of an Ashley KLR4000. So, each sub was getting 1000watts.
The Lab12 drivers are rated for 400RMS and 800Peak. We were pushing the amps all the way to redline and the drivers never complained.
Leland will have to confirm, but I believe he had to put almost 2000 watts to them to get them to complain.
Second instance happened last week.
I installed two MinE25's with the Peerless 5" drivers in a chapel.
I hooked them up and ran lot of music through them, just listening and tweaking.
I ran the fader up to unity and had the place THUMPIN'! Full range, 12db slope highpass at 40hz.
Just enjoying... sounded amazing !!!
I didn't even realize until later that I was driving them with an amp rated at 600 watts @ 8ohms.
According to the driver specs, the max for two of those drivers should be 120 watts.

So, in my experience, the BigE cabs will take some pretty good abuse.

Why? How? I have no idea.
Your mileage may vary, but that's my experience so far.
 
Mike will answer soon.
I can only reiterate that he says the 48 will out perform an 8x10.
I have not pushed mine at an outdoor gig yet. I plan to though. A knuckle head can blow just about anything, but I have let opening bands play through my 1515/66 and my head with almost 0 concern. Pretty hard to blow 2 3015lfs without serious psychopathic behavior.
If you host a jam, you may have to tell folks not to touch the master volume after you set it. The other people playing will probably tell the bass to turn down if he is wankin anyway.
That concept about "unloading" will be interesting to hear more about from Mike.
 
MVW cabs will take a lot of juice. More than they should be capable of. Unknown why. The MinE25 has two 5" 120w drivers wired in parallel, 4 ohm load. High passed at 60, I've put well over 500 watts into it with no complaints. Sweeps and music. Drop the high pass to 50 though and you reach xlim at that kind of power.

The subs I put 2k into the Rache18's with Impero's(1200w) and DeltaPro18a(500w). The DeltaPro started to complain, the Impero just said give me more. Same story with RachE12's using 18sounds and Lab 12's.

The GC46, which is a kissin' cousin to Mike's 4x6 I've put 1k into many times, high passed at 40. extended runs. I rate it at 500w continuous, 1000w peaks for PA use.

Do I recommend it, no. I was actually trying to blow them up to see the limits. The actual ratings for the cabs will be more conservative than my testing.
 
Browsing back through this thread I see the pics with the cabs vertical. I don't know if Mike's discussed it, but it does change the sound. Significantly in terms of horizontal dispersion. You've now forced the very wide dispersion into the vertical. Fairly certain for a bass player's use it's no big deal. YMMV. For PA use, you have to run them horizontally.
 
I presently own a Bill Fitzmaurice PA setup with a pair of 22"w T39 subs loaded with Eminence 3012LF drivers and a pair of OTops loaded with Eminence 3012HO drivers and ND2005 HF horns. This is a good big rig but too much for practice so I have a pair of Fearless-inspired 15/6/1 cabs with the Eminence 3015LF/18Sound 6" mid/Eminence 1001 HF horn for practice. I was wondering if I could consolidate and have a pair of 6x6 cabs cover everything? The 4x8 is formidable but I'd like to keep individual items under 60 lbs.

Would a pair of 6x6 high passed at 40hz powered by a Crown xTi4000 but without subs provide a suitable PA for a rock/blues/funk band at a 200-300 person venue (assume robust but not stupid volume)? It would be nice not to have to deal with subs but if required, could a single Rache18 with Impero driver get the job done? What crossover point is suitable for the sub?

Also, would pole mounting or floor placement be preferred? Pole mounting should improve dispersion but have less bass without floor coupling so does the answer depend on whether a sub is used?
 
There's currently not a 6x6 PA cab. The 6x6 bass cab is probably over 60lbs. I have one here, but never weighed it. I think even with it you'd need subs for your style of music.

If you're looking to lessen pack space, you will, but not a lot. Rache 12's are 28x20x15, smaller than the T39's. The GC46 though are pretty close to an Otop in size. More of a rectangle than a cube like Otops.
 
Vortexitude.

* My perception of the early model 2x8 I had is that it was right around as loud as the Thunderchild 1x15 per watt but bottomed out sooner. They've changed woofers to less sensitive but more power handling since then, so...not impossible I guess. My guess is the 4x8 is going to be closer to the realm of a 15/6 in overall volume (or a decent quality 6x10), but hey, I could be wrong.
 
It's somewhere a few pages back. Overall loudness, and the dispersion too.
I won't speak for him, but NorCal Dog took his new 48 to his friend's music shop and compared it to an 8x10.
That post is in here somewhere too. Maybe search for his posts. I personally can only tell you I told Mike I was used to being armed with 1515/66. He gave me the comparison numbers and the BigE 48 was higher output than a typical 8x10 and I believe ,less than the 1515/66.
I have not challenged mine beyond a medium room though.
The dispersion thing is really something unusual in my experience.
 
Ok again

To get a reasonable starting point we go by the air volume displaced by the speaker. With conventional speakers it's the area of the cone times excursion max.

With the Big E due to the contribution of the rear wave you multiply by 2.5. To be a bit more conservative let's say 2.25

the 5" woofer has a Vd of 42cc's. That's how much air it can move. So times 2.25=94.5cc's

The 6 winds up being 165cc's

The 8 is a whopping 419cc's.


NOW--

a Kappalite 3012lf 12" woofer is 496

A Kappatile 3015lf 15" is a crazy 844

A Deltalite 10" (pretty much as big as you'll see in a 10) is only 147

So--an 8x10 cab will be around 1176 cc's

A super 12 cab is about 496

A super 15 cab is 844

A 210 is 294

A 410 is 588


OK to compare

a 45 (4x5) is 378

a 65 is 567

an 85 is 756

a 26 (2x6.5) is 330

a 46 is 660

a 66 is 990

a 28 is 838

a 48 is 1676


So to compete with a 410 you have

a 65

a 46


to compete with a super 12

a 65

a 46 is a lot louder


to compete with a super 15

an 85 will do it--I've had them head to head if you go with the 2.5 ratio it's 840cc's

a 28

the 46 comes close---again when you go with 2.5 it comes out to 733


to compete with a 610

a 28

a 66 will beat it

an 85 will be very close


to compete with an 810

two 65's

two 46's

a 48 will beat it pretty easily


to compete with a 212

a 66

a 28 will come close


to compete with a 215

a 48

two 46's are pretty close

these have proved pretty close to accurate in my experience. As far as the 10's---most are within these parameters. A small few 10" cabs use custom oem drivers that have Vd's of more than 147cc's. Not most, though.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by Mike Arnopol : 02-13-2013 at 08:46 AM.
 
At the listening party, we were driving the RachE12's with one side of an Ashley KLR4000. So, each sub was getting 1000watts.
The Lab12 drivers are rated for 400RMS and 800Peak. We were pushing the amps all the way to redline and the drivers never complained.
Leland will have to confirm, but I believe he had to put almost 2000 watts to them to get them to complain.

I'm sure these cabs are EXCELLENT. But you really can't say you put X amount of power to them. You didn't measure the output. You say the amps were 'at redline' but you don't actually know that because you didn't measure.
I think it might be more accurate to simply say that they are very, very loud, and sound very, very good.... ;)
 
I think that they go very, very loud and sound very, very good.

Seriously folks---

just got back from visiting my son at college in Seattle. 5 days where I wasn't allowed by my wife to post on TB!(a good thing)

Apparently we brought good weather karma with us because the weather was astounding! We actually saw stars at night in Seattle!

I'll post tomorrow in regards to all the shenanigans and goings on
here on the thread. ( my family was watching the Mystery Science Theater movie last week and we all keep quoting "shenanigans and goings on")
 
i-am-attending-the-shenanigans.jpg
 
I presently own a Bill Fitzmaurice PA setup with a pair of 22"w T39 subs loaded with Eminence 3012LF drivers and a pair of OTops loaded with Eminence 3012HO drivers and ND2005 HF horns. This is a good big rig but too much for practice so I have a pair of Fearless-inspired 15/6/1 cabs with the Eminence 3015LF/18Sound 6" mid/Eminence 1001 HF horn for practice. I was wondering if I could consolidate and have a pair of 6x6 cabs cover everything? The 4x8 is formidable but I'd like to keep individual items under 60 lbs.

Would a pair of 6x6 high passed at 40hz powered by a Crown xTi4000 but without subs provide a suitable PA for a rock/blues/funk band at a 200-300 person venue (assume robust but not stupid volume)? It would be nice not to have to deal with subs but if required, could a single Rache18 with Impero driver get the job done? What crossover point is suitable for the sub?

Also, would pole mounting or floor placement be preferred? Pole mounting should improve dispersion but have less bass without floor coupling so does the answer depend on whether a sub is used?

For about the last month + I have been using a pair of Big-E 4X6 PA cabs for mains, and we are a loud-ish R&B band playing 200 or so person-sized venues.

I've been pole mounting them horizontally (Leland has set them up to use easily that way with spring handles on the ends and a top strap for load-in). At 50 lbs. they are still pretty easy to wrestle, but getting close to as much weight as I'd like to run up a pole. So far, I am finding these are remarkable cabs for our FOH needs, and I've had to put aside my preconceptions about what they might handle room size-wise.

Not only do these offer a remarkable clarity in the vocal range (and warmth in the low-mids) but I'm also finding I can use a lower setting for the mains to accomplish the same task ...actually, accomplish it better. In my limited experience, these speakers project the mix more clearly and evenly around the room than the 15" 2-ways I've been using forever. I'm powering them with a 500 watt @4ohm QSC. We were actually advised to turn down the vocals! ...imagine that!

I'm also finding myself "flattening" my typical room EQ, as the natural sound from these is quite convincing (I haven't yet used them in a "problem" venue).

We do use a sub fed various ways depending on the set-up. Typically I just cross the main mix over at 75hz. It works great. I have also used these without a sub in a quiet room with the just the kick mic'ed lightly. ...sounded great!

I also had a chance to run a bass guitar through them in an A/B test at home vs. a 2-1X12 (pair of DB-112's) and an Eden 410 XLT. From a volume standpoint, the comparison was very close in both cases. Without getting technical, my sense is that the 4X6 (GC468) is in the same volume/watt ball park as these other two configurations. Keep in mind the 2x12 stack was 4 ohms in this case, the Eden and the Big-E, 8 ohms each.

However, at least when used as PA mains and mounted horizontally, the dispersion characteristics of this cab are very different, and much more uniform throughout a medium-sized room than the 15" 2-way boxes that I've struggled with for FOH forever. I'm looking forward to taking them outside!

I suspect they might meet your needs. In any case, there's no risk in trying them if Leland's offering a free trial period. I can't say he is for sure, but he's around here somewhere and can chime in.
 
For about the last month + I have been using a pair of Big-E 4X6 PA cabs for mains, and we are a loud-ish R&B band playing 200 or so person-sized venues.

I've been pole mounting them horizontally (Leland has set them up to use easily that way with spring handles on the ends and a top strap for load-in). At 50 lbs. they are still pretty easy to wrestle, but getting close to as much weight as I'd like to run up a pole. So far, I am finding these are remarkable cabs for our FOH needs, and I've had to put aside my preconceptions about what they might handle room size-wise.

Not only do these offer a remarkable clarity in the vocal range (and warmth in the low-mids) but I'm also finding I can use a lower setting for the mains to accomplish the same task ...actually, accomplish it better. In my limited experience, these speakers project the mix more clearly and evenly around the room than the 15" 2-ways I've been using forever. I'm powering them with a 500 watt @4ohm QSC. We were actually advised to turn down the vocals! ...imagine that!

I'm also finding myself "flattening" my typical room EQ, as the natural sound from these is quite convincing (I haven't yet used them in a "problem" venue).

We do use a sub fed various ways depending on the set-up. Typically I just cross the main mix over at 75hz. It works great. I have also used these without a sub in a quiet room with the just the kick mic'ed lightly. ...sounded great!

I also had a chance to run a bass guitar through them in an A/B test at home vs. a 2-1X12 (pair of DB-112's) and an Eden 410 XLT. From a volume standpoint, the comparison was very close in both cases. Without getting technical, my sense is that the 4X6 (GC468) is in the same volume/watt ball park as these other two configurations. Keep in mind the 2x12 stack was 4 ohms in this case, the Eden and the Big-E, 8 ohms each.

However, at least when used as PA mains and mounted horizontally, the dispersion characteristics of this cab are very different, and much more uniform throughout a medium-sized room than the 15" 2-way boxes that I've struggled with for FOH forever. I'm looking forward to taking them outside!

I suspect they might meet your needs. In any case, there's no risk in trying them if Leland's offering a free trial period. I can't say he is for sure, but he's around here somewhere and can chime in.

Very cool!
Thanks for the info.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.